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Cambrian Coast Line Speeds / Journey Times

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CambrianCoast

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Having travelled on the Cambrian Coast on nearly a daily basis for the past 25 years, I can’t help but feel the journey times have increased between Pwllheli and Machynlleth and that line speeds feel to have decreased since the introduction of ERTMS. Is this something others feel and can be evidenced?
 
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alistairlees

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Well in the early 1980s I was in a DMU that reached 70 mph between Barmouth and Tywyn somewhere - along the cliff tops if I recall. I was in the seat behind the driver with the blinds up of course.
 

Ianno87

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Having travelled on the Cambrian Coast on nearly a daily basis for the past 25 years, I can’t help but feel the journey times have increased between Pwllheli and Machynlleth and that line speeds feel to have decreased since the introduction of ERTMS. Is this something others feel and can be evidenced?

I know one issue is that the braking curve that the ETCS imposes on the driver approaching speed restrictions is much more cautious than a driver driving (for want of a better word) "aggressively".

Obviously the braking curve has to account for the poorest railhead conditions going downhill etc etc, whereas a driver actually driving can tailor their driving to the conditions.

On an 'exposed' route with many stops like the Cambrian, small differences at every stop add up over the entire route.
 

30907

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The best possible all-stations time in the 2004 summer timetable was just under 2 hours, and now it is 2hr 13. I didn't compare the number of request stops but I don't think it was significantly different.
 

CambrianCoast

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Interesting stuff. The main sections I can really notice a difference compared to years gone by are:
  • The bridge over the river Dysynni after Tonfannau station - (possibly a TSR?)
  • Tŷ Gwyn level crossing
  • Section between Talsarnau and Llandecwyn stations
  • Sections between Tŷ Gwyn and Harlech, Llandanwg and Pensarn, Llanbedr and Dyffryn (condition / quality of track perhaps?)
 

Llanigraham

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From an "insider", one of the major changes has been speeds over the numerous UWC's and the tightening up of sighting distances compared to the past, not helped by known problems with crossing misuse in some areas.

And I've not heard of anyone locally complain about it.
 

30907

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From an "insider", one of the major changes has been speeds over the numerous UWC's and the tightening up of sighting distances compared to the past, not helped by known problems with crossing misuse in some areas.

And I've not heard of anyone locally complain about it.

Makes sense. In practical terms for most of the day the extra time simply means less of a wait at crossing loops.
 

Meole

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Crossings are regular delays and understood by most, speed is not an issue on such a scenic line, a morning train along the Dyfi is an absolute delight for starters, must be the best value journey in UK.
 

CambrianCoast

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They’re not complaints. Just observations and interesting to hear views and knowledge from people in the know :)
 

Belperpete

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I recall that the timetable was adjusted after ERTMS was introduced, because (unlike RETB) ERTMS would not allow up and down trains to enter a loop simultaneously. I understood that it was intended to adjust the ERTMS to rectify this, but don't recall anything about it actually happening. A bit like the proposed "portable ERTMS unit" to allow steam specials, that has never materialised.
 

Belperpete

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Welshpool loop is a special case: it was extended as a "dynamic loop", basically a short section of double track, specifically so that two trains could pass on the move (although I have never seen that happen in practice).
 

Llanigraham

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Welshpool loop is a special case: it was extended as a "dynamic loop", basically a short section of double track, specifically so that two trains could pass on the move (although I have never seen that happen in practice).

The loop at Welshpool is not a "special case", it is just that, a long loop. The fact that it is termed dynamic just means that the trains can pass each other at speed, and I can assure you that it is regularly used in that manner.
The problem with the other loops on the Cambrian is generally their lengths which would not allow this to happen without their extension, and in many paces that is not physically possible.
 

CambrianCoast

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The loop at Welshpool is not a "special case", it is just that, a long loop. The fact that it is termed dynamic just means that the trains can pass each other at speed, and I can assure you that it is regularly used in that manner.
The problem with the other loops on the Cambrian is generally their lengths which would not allow this to happen without their extension, and in many paces that is not physically possible.

I can only assume that the reasoning for the restriction on allowing two trains to enter a passing loop simultaneously is one based on safety rather than a quirk in the signalling system? Could it be argued hypothetically that if the path is successfully set for two trains to enter from each end of the loop, they could in theory enter at the same time with confirmation of the set path? Dunno, just throwing this in...
 
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70014IronDuke

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The loop at Welshpool is not a "special case", it is just that, a long loop. The fact that it is termed dynamic just means that the trains can pass each other at speed, and I can assure you that it is regularly used in that manner.
The problem with the other loops on the Cambrian is generally their lengths which would not allow this to happen without their extension, and in many paces that is not physically possible.

Interesting thread. What loops could be extended relatively "cheaply" and how needed are they, both on the main Cambrian and coast lines? (I thought the main Cambrian was fettled up for 1 TPH operation some years ago: was that done 'one the cheap'?)
 

krus_aragon

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Interesting thread. What loops could be extended relatively "cheaply" and how needed are they, both on the main Cambrian and coast lines? (I thought the main Cambrian was fettled up for 1 TPH operation some years ago: was that done 'one the cheap'?)
"Done on the cheap" in the sense that the infrastructure upgrades were funded, but the operating funding for extra rolling stock didn't follow.
 

Llanigraham

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Interesting thread. What loops could be extended relatively "cheaply" and how needed are they, both on the main Cambrian and coast lines? (I thought the main Cambrian was fettled up for 1 TPH operation some years ago: was that done 'one the cheap'?)

Remember that much of this line was never double, especially west of Moat Lane, and that most of the loops were situated at the few stations along the line, and only Caersws Station now exists and a loop there would do nothing, and is no longer physically possible.
Talerddig loop is the only loop between there and Machy and I don't think there is any room to extend that, but it fits in with the service pattern.
Carno would love to get their station back (pigs might fly!) and reinstating that loop would be difficult and wouldn't work with the current service patterns.
The main line was rebuilt for the hourly service and generally it does work, and from those that I know who work it (signalling and trains) no it wasn't done "on the cheap". Certainly ERTMS seems to give them more flexibility than the old system did.
As to the coastal sections all I have spoken to suggest that it works well for the service currently.
From my experience any additional loops would only be useful at times of severe delays, and really those really don't occur that often.
 

Belperpete

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The loop at Welshpool is not a "special case", it is just that, a long loop.
Sorry, but not true. It has also been split into several "block sections" (or whatever they are called in ERTMS terms), so that theoretically you can have two or more trains following one another within each loop line. Unlike the standard loops, which only have one block section within each loop. Having said that, I had forgotten that Newtown was also made into a dynamic loop, so Welshpool is not quite so "special case".

I can only assume that the reasoning for the restriction on allowing two trains to enter a passing loop simultaneously is one based on safety rather than a quirk in the signalling system? Could it be argued hypothetically that if the path is successfully set for two trains to enter from each end of the loop, they could in theory enter at the same time with confirmation of the set path?
At most of the loops, with ERTMs it is not possible to set for two trains to enter each loop simultaneously. Whereas previously, at the same loops, it was possible with RETB. The reason is that ERTMS requires an overlap beyond the end-of-loop marker/stop board, in case a train over-runs the board, in the same way as overlaps are provided beyond conventional signals. This overlap extends through the loop points beyond the board, so blocking any move being made through those points. So it is not possible to admit say a down train until the up train has been brought to a stand in the loop. Once the train is at a stand, then the overlap through the points ahead is no longer needed.

With the old mechanical signalling, most of the loops had trap points at the end of each loop, to divert an over-running train. Where both loop lines had trap points, it was therefore possible to admit two trains simultaneously. These trap points were removed when the line was resignalled with RETB, as there was no way for the RETB to control them.

With RETB, the loop facing points were worked by hydrostatic self-restoring point units, which imposed quite a severe speed restriction on trains entering each loop. Due to the low speed at which trains entered each loop, only a minimal overlap was provided beyond the end-of-loop stop boards, which did not impinge on the loop points beyond (I have a feeling that, even with the low speed, a derogation against standards was needed). So with RETB, it was still possible for both up and down trains to enter simultaneously.

When the line was resignalled with ERTMS, longer overlaps to current standards were needed at the ends of each loop. This may or may not have been due in part to the loop points being converted to clamp-locks operated by the ERTMS (the hydrostatic units were life-expired), so the speed restrictions imposed by the hydrostatic units were no longer necessary.

Re-instating the trap points, operated by the ERTMS, would be one way of re-instating the simultaneous arrivals. However, this would cost money, the extra equipment would be liable to failures with consequent effects on service reliability, and would involve extra overheads in on-going maintenance. Extending the loops beyond the stop boards to provide adequate overlap distance would be another way (as was done at Welshpool and Newtown when they were extended to make them into dynamic loops). Again, this would be costly.

Although promises were made at the time to solve the issue, I suspect that when the costs involved were compared with the time that would be saved, it was decided it wasn't worth it, and to live with the delays.
 
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Belperpete

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I know one issue is that the braking curve that the ETCS imposes on the driver approaching speed restrictions is much more cautious than a driver driving (for want of a better word) "aggressively". Obviously the braking curve has to account for the poorest railhead conditions going downhill etc etc, whereas a driver actually driving can tailor their driving to the conditions.
On an 'exposed' route with many stops like the Cambrian, small differences at every stop add up over the entire route.
The ERTMS may potentially add additional delay at speed restrictions, and at the loops, in the manner that you suggest. However, it won't impose any additional delay at all the intermediate halts, as it doesn't enforce the stop at the intermediate halts.
 
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