Cambrian hourly service consultation

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PHILIPE

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Obviously stock requirements have been evaluated but the actual details would still be under wraps at the moment so what we are discussing now is pure surmising and personal ideas and suggestions.
 
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Rhydgaled

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However with the rumor factory in full production,why not use the spare Gerald set of mark3s now residing in Crewe works,while the rental is paid up for a couple of years,will Victoria have loco run around facilities,I know Piccadilly has none, or will it be DVTs?
Gareth said the draft Cambrian timetable doesn't need extra units, so maybe no additional LHCS is needed. The spare Gerald set is surely needed as a spare, can't expect 100% availablity from a fleet... But there are two spare ATW-liveried 67s and DVTs so they could in theroy have two sets running and one spare if they can procure another rake of standard class mark3s.

It's not a rumour they were moved to LNWR in Crewe last week.
The Gerald spare set? Or an actual third set of ATW mark3s? If the former, wouldn't it just be for an exam / routine overhaul?
 

Emyr

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All this talk of inadequate capacity on Chester/Manchester Sprinters has me confused.

Yours,
A Welshman in Altrincham.


On serious matters, the hourly Piccadilly-Altrincham-Chester services arrive at xx45, then return as the xx04. Is there anything to be gained from extending these services south, or running ATW services up the mid-cheshire line, once the 20mph "Screech Zone" has been bought up to standard?
 

Rhydgaled

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All this talk of inadequate capacity on Chester/Manchester Sprinters has me confused.

Yours,
A Welshman in Altrincham.
Put simply: some of the ATW N.Wales/Chester - Manchester services have been lengthened from 3-car class 175 to 4-car class 158.

Also, I think one of the 4-car 158 workings out of Manchester splits at Chester with one unit (2 coaches) going to Llandudno and the other going to Holyhead.

On serious matters, the hourly Piccadilly-Altrincham-Chester services arrive at xx45, then return as the xx04. Is there anything to be gained from extending these services south, or running ATW services up the mid-cheshire line, once the 20mph "Screech Zone" has been bought up to standard?
Are you suggesting a Manchester - Altrincham - Chester - Wrexham service when the redoubling between Wrexham and Chester is done? If so, it sounds like it might be a good idea. Might run into problems with the franchise map though, and the normal shortage of rolling stock.

As for ATW services via Altrincham, I've been on one such service (which the guard announced as running 'express' from Chester to Manchester Piccadilly), presumably diverted from the normal route via Manchester Oxford Road.
 

jones_bangor

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Put simply: some of the ATW N.Wales/Chester - Manchester services have been lengthened from 3-car class 175 to 4-car class 158.

Also, I think one of the 4-car 158 workings out of Manchester splits at Chester with one unit (2 coaches) going to Llandudno and the other going to Holyhead.
I'd suggest that such a split would take place at the Junction!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Put simply: some of the ATW N.Wales/Chester - Manchester services have been lengthened from 3-car class 175 to 4-car class 158.
Also, I think one of the 4-car 158 workings out of Manchester splits at Chester with one unit (2 coaches) going to Llandudno and the other going to Holyhead.
I'd suggest that such a split would take place at the Junction!
The split on the 0850 ex Manchester is at Chester, the front unit is fast to Holyhead, the rear unit does the usual all stops to Llandudno.
And it's the only 4-car working (0712 Chester-Manchester).
There's been a recent tendency for the 3-car 175s to be replaced by 2-car 158s, and overall the coast capacity is if anything less than it was.
That's on top of 3-car Holyhead-Crewes being reduced to 2-car Birminghams a while back, for the benefit of Marches services.
 

merlodlliw

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The MK 3's moving to Crewe after the Cambrian/HOW announcement from WG is pure coincidence?
I am only aware of one set of Mark3s at Canton which act as a spare for Gerald
six mark3s were refurbished at Cardiff paid for by WG,these six remain on hire & are not owned,but run by ATW,two mark3 dinners,If I recall were also in the refurb scheme which cost WG £3.5M for a five year period.

I am not aware of ATW having any more Mark3s, other than hiring them in,& ATW wont pay for the hire,unless WG funds them.

If you want an even more besare twist, this appeared in North Wales Rail newsboard on Tuesday. Written by Charlie Hume, New class 68s

The going-away shot shows the fine lines of these locomotives; the 'rumour factory' says they will soon be working from Holyhead to Cardiff as well as Birmingham to Marylebone. [The first chance to travel behind a 68 may be the Pathfinder Tours 'Caterpillar Cat' excursion from Eastleigh to Crewe and Chester planned for 19 July, named after the Caterpillar company whose diesel engines are fitted in these locos.]
link http://nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The split on the 0850 ex Manchester is at Chester, the front unit is fast to Holyhead, the rear unit does the usual all stops to Llandudno.
And it's the only 4-car working (0712 Chester-Manchester).
I presumed the 0740 out of Chester was also a four car 158?, ATW announced both 0712 & 0740 three car 175s were being strengthened to 4 car 158s due to overcrowding, the announcement was over a year ago,unless this has changed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Obviously stock requirements have been evaluated but the actual details would still be under wraps at the moment so what we are discussing now is pure surmising and personal ideas and suggestions.
I agree, but many have their fingers on the pulse.
 
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berneyarms

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There was a rake of Mk 3 coaches that have been stored at Long Marston that ATW own that have been moved to Crewe for refurbishment according to last week's edition of RAIL.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I presumed the 0740 out of Chester was also a four car 158?, ATW announced both 0712 & 0740 three car 175s were being strengthened to 4 car 158s due to overcrowding, the announcement was over a year ago,unless this has changed.
I forgot about the 0740 (0634 from Llandudno).
It doesn't appear to divide anywhere, so not sure if it stays 4-car all day.

There was a rake of Mk 3 coaches that have been stored at Long Marston that ATW own that have been moved to Crewe for refurbishment according to last week's edition of RAIL.
They are said to be 4xFO (3 ex DRS, 1 ex Cargo-D), so not used by ATW in the past.
Arriva (or one of its TOCs) must be sure of work to have them refurbished.
 

Rhydgaled

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The MK 3's moving to Crewe after the Cambrian/HOW announcement from WG is pure coincidence?
That depends which mark3s they are. If it's just the Gerald spare set, I expect it is just a coincidence.

There was a rake of Mk 3 coaches that have been stored at Long Marston that ATW own that have been moved to Crewe for refurbishment according to last week's edition of RAIL.
ATW don't own any mark3s. In fact, I think they sold the Cardiff Bay slammer unit so they don't own any stock anymore. If the mark3s at Crewe are from Long Marston though then it doesn't sound like the Gerald spare set so maybe there is something in the rumours after all.

They are said to be 4xFO (3 ex DRS, 1 ex Cargo-D), so not used by ATW in the past. Arriva (or one of its TOCs) must be sure of work to have them refurbished.
DRS refurbished/are refurbishing mark2s (inc. DBSOs) for the Cumbrian Coast 'GloEx' service though. And I don't think the service actually happened. On that basis, refurbishment of LHCS doesn't seem to be any guarantee of work.
 

Emyr

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Are you suggesting a Manchester - Altrincham - Chester - Wrexham service when the redoubling between Wrexham and Chester is done? If so, it sounds like it might be a good idea. Might run into problems with the franchise map though, and the normal shortage of rolling stock.
Yes, but there's a section between Northwich and Greenbank which is 20mph as it's a tight curve (or at least, tight for a Pacer) past a housing estate.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There was a rake of Mk 3 coaches that have been stored at Long Marston that ATW own that have been moved to Crewe for refurbishment according to last week's edition of RAIL.
But...
Modern Railways (May) has a very similar picture of these Mk3s moving to Crewe, but says this is "thought to be in preparation for work with DRS on summer extras in East Anglia".
 

merlodlliw

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But...
Modern Railways (May) has a very similar picture of these Mk3s moving to Crewe, but says this is "thought to be in preparation for work with DRS on summer extras in East Anglia".
It is thought, is the word. Thinking about it, why would the Gerald spare set of Mark3s need to go to Crewe, after the major rebuild at Cardiff less than three years ago, they only travel 400 miles a week day when in use.
 

berneyarms

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ATW don't own any mark3s. In fact, I think they sold the Cardiff Bay slammer unit so they don't own any stock anymore. If the mark3s at Crewe are from Long Marston though then it doesn't sound like the Gerald spare set so maybe there is something in the rumours after all.
Apologies, I shouldn't have used the word "own".

The report in RAIL (on page 33) states that the four Mk3 FO have been stored at Long Marston for many years, and are going to Crewe for overhaul for use by ATW later this year.
 
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merlodlliw

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Apologies, I shouldn't have used the word "own".

The report in RAIL (on page 33) states that the four Mk3 FO have been stored at Long Marston for many years, and are going to Crewe for overhaul for use by ATW later this year.
Meaning Dec 2014 ATW timetable,I dont see it, had they put May 2015 OK.

My guess is,they have got the wrong toc,but thanks for the info, if they have been left in the open for years, ill bet they leak or worse,
North Wales Rail will have the story next week I am sure, ill e mail the editor.
 
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jones_bangor

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Surely it would make more sense to use LHCS on Cardiff - Holyheads - this would fit in better with staff familiarity etc...

This would free up 158s or 175s for other crowded services?

I could see LHCS on services to Manchester, but surely this is going to be a major pain to organise if it means training drivers etc....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 08:50 ex-Manchester splits at Chester with one half operating fast to Holyhead, and the other half operating a stopping service to Llandudno.
I see! And thanks for explaining :)
 

PHILIPE

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I forgot about the 0740 (0634 from Llandudno).
It doesn't appear to divide anywhere, so not sure if it stays 4-car all day.



They are said to be 4xFO (3 ex DRS, 1 ex Cargo-D), so not used by ATW in the past.
Arriva (or one of its TOCs) must be sure of work to have them refurbished.
The 07 40 ex Chester did not go to 2X158s and is 175/1.
 

berneyarms

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The 07 40 ex Chester did not go to 2X158s and is 175/1.
Can I just clarify:

The 0712 ex-Chester is 2x158 which then operates the 08:50 ex-Manchester.

And you're saying that the 07:40 ex-Chester (06:34 ex-Llandudno) is a Class 175/1.

What operates the 06:40 ex-Chester (05:46 ex-Llandudno Junction)?
 

PHILIPE

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Can I just clarify:

The 0712 ex-Chester is 2x158 which then operates the 08:50 ex-Manchester.

And you're saying that the 07:40 ex-Chester (06:34 ex-Llandudno) is a Class 175/1.

What operates the 06:40 ex-Chester (05:46 ex-Llandudno Junction)?
A 175/0 from last December in lieu of 175/1 because it's work is more suited for the rest of the day to be a 175/0 and the 175/1 working a diagram with a greater need. Mind you, the 07 40 ex Chester can now have up to 40 people standing by the time it reaches Manchester.
There would not be enough 158s to have 2 4 Car Combos.
 

merlodlliw

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A 175/0 from last December in lieu of 175/1 because it's work is more suited for the rest of the day to be a 175/0 and the 175/1 working a diagram with a greater need. Mind you, the 07 40 ex Chester can now have up to 40 people standing by the time it reaches Manchester.
There would not be enough 158s to have 2 4 Car Combos.
Is this 175 from last December a three car? on another point anyone from Wrexham to Manchester for work, the only option is to catch the 0557 which forms part of the 0712 4 car 158 combo,then wait 50 minutes at Chester for it.
The 0700 from Wrexham misses the 0712 by two/three minutes, due to the VT having to wait for platform four,which the 0712 to Manchester departs from,a real cock up to force people into cars.
 

PHILIPE

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Is this 175 from last December a three car? on another point anyone from Wrexham to Manchester for work, the only option is to catch the 0557 which forms part of the 0712 4 car 158 combo,then wait 50 minutes at Chester for it.
The 0700 from Wrexham misses the 0712 by two/three minutes, due to the VT having to wait for platform four,which the 0712 to Manchester departs from,a real cock up to force people into cars.
No. A 2 Car (175/0) which, as I said, fills up. The 175 (3 Car) which previously worked it changes Diagrams to use a 3 Car on the 15 30 Manchester to Carmarthen. The rest of the 2 Car Diagram entails working Llandudno to Cardiff/Swansea/Holyhead as a result of Gerallt's return working changing.
 

merlodlliw

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No. A 2 Car (175/0) which, as I said, fills up. The 175 (3 Car) which previously worked it changes Diagrams to use a 3 Car on the 15 30 Manchester to Carmarthen. The rest of the 2 Car Diagram entails working Llandudno to Cardiff/Swansea/Holyhead as a result of Gerallt's return working changing.
Thank you Philipe you are very knowledgeable,putting a two car 175 on the 0740 Chester to Manchester is strange after all the shouting from ATW the three car was to be strengthened to a four car 158, not surprised about standing room only.
I have had a reply from the Editor of North Wales News website below


They certainly are from Long Marston, we published a picture of them being transferred not long ago, and they belong to DB Regio, who I believe bought up all the remaining Mk3s a while back. See

http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1404a.htm
On a similar theme, I have often wondered where the 1719 ATW relief to Chester from Picc comes from,I know it then returns to the Airport,is the stock taken off another service,out of interest. I used this service many years ago in FNW days,sometimes it started from the Oxford Rd bay,
 
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PHILIPE

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Not quite. It's the 06 40 Chester that's a 2 Car and the 07 40 a 3 Car 175.
The evening extra is from Llandudno and achieved by altering the normal pattern at Llandudno. Instead of Manchester/Llandudno/LlandudnoJn/Llandudno/Manchester pattern a couple of short trips to Llandudno Jn in the afternoon are knocked out and thus it becomes possible by extending to Manchester, and the next one down does likewise..
Hope you understand this, Bob.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Not quite. It's the 06 40 Chester that's a 2 Car and the 07 40 a 3 Car 175.
The evening extra is from Llandudno and achieved by altering the normal pattern at Llandudno. Instead of Manchester/Llandudno/LlandudnoJn/Llandudno/Manchester pattern a couple of short trips to Llandudno Jn in the afternoon are knocked out and thus it becomes possible by extending to Manchester, and the next one down does likewise..
Hope you understand this, Bob.
Yes, and the waits of two trains at Mayfield are also truncated as well to gain time on the Piccadilly turnround.
 

merlodlliw

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Not quite. It's the 06 40 Chester that's a 2 Car and the 07 40 a 3 Car 175.
The evening extra is from Llandudno and achieved by altering the normal pattern at Llandudno. Instead of Manchester/Llandudno/LlandudnoJn/Llandudno/Manchester pattern a couple of short trips to Llandudno Jn in the afternoon are knocked out and thus it becomes possible by extending to Manchester, and the next one down does likewise..
Hope you understand this, Bob.
Thanks Philipe,yes I understand & can now plainly see it from the timetables,& thanks for clearing up the 0740 ex Chester now being a three car to Picc.
The new May timetable shows two trains from Llandudno to Manchester at 1440 & 1508, 28 minutes apart, so I see where the 1719 ex Piccadilly comes from.I can fully understand the problems faced by ATW controllers if one fails on its way to Manchester for the peak rush hour services.
Sorry for hogging the Cambrian thread.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes, and the waits of two trains at Mayfield are also truncated as well to gain time on the Piccadilly turnround.
Your are of course correct, I recall the old NW 1719 out of Piccadilly some times Oxford Rd could be a 150 with three bench seats one side and two?on the other side ,a most unusual arrangement for Chester.
 
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berneyarms

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Thanks for all these explanations.

Having studied the timetables and the posts on these fora, I can certainly see how intertwined the 158 diagrams are. By my calculations 17 158 units are in use in North Wales and on the Cambrian lines each weekday, with 7 sets overnight at Machynlleth, 1 at Pwllheli, 1 at Birmingham, 2 each at Holyhead and Shrewsbury, and 4 at Chester.

How many are in South Wales, and how do they swap over?
 

Gareth Marston

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Thanks for all these explanations.

Having studied the timetables and the posts on these fora, I can certainly see how intertwined the 158 diagrams are. By my calculations 17 158 units are in use in North Wales and on the Cambrian lines each weekday, with 7 sets overnight at Machynlleth, 1 at Pwllheli, 1 at Birmingham, 2 each at Holyhead and Shrewsbury, and 4 at Chester.

How many are in South Wales, and how do they swap over?
20 unit's out of 24 are diagrammed on a normal weekday.
No units are stabled in Birmingham, Salop has 3.

One overnights at Carmarthen and one at Cardiff Canton with a third S Wales diagram starting very early from Chester 0515 - you'll find the 3 will get everywhere on ATW Table 3 except Milford Haven. There was an ECS from Machynlleth to Canton yesterday which is relatively rare.
 
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