PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Obviously stock requirements have been evaluated but the actual details would still be under wraps at the moment so what we are discussing now is pure surmising and personal ideas and suggestions.
Gareth said the draft Cambrian timetable doesn't need extra units, so maybe no additional LHCS is needed. The spare Gerald set is surely needed as a spare, can't expect 100% availablity from a fleet... But there are two spare ATW-liveried 67s and DVTs so they could in theroy have two sets running and one spare if they can procure another rake of standard class mark3s.However with the rumor factory in full production,why not use the spare Gerald set of mark3s now residing in Crewe works,while the rental is paid up for a couple of years,will Victoria have loco run around facilities,I know Piccadilly has none, or will it be DVTs?
The Gerald spare set? Or an actual third set of ATW mark3s? If the former, wouldn't it just be for an exam / routine overhaul?It's not a rumour they were moved to LNWR in Crewe last week.
Put simply: some of the ATW N.Wales/Chester - Manchester services have been lengthened from 3-car class 175 to 4-car class 158.All this talk of inadequate capacity on Chester/Manchester Sprinters has me confused.
Yours,
A Welshman in Altrincham.
Are you suggesting a Manchester - Altrincham - Chester - Wrexham service when the redoubling between Wrexham and Chester is done? If so, it sounds like it might be a good idea. Might run into problems with the franchise map though, and the normal shortage of rolling stock.On serious matters, the hourly Piccadilly-Altrincham-Chester services arrive at xx45, then return as the xx04. Is there anything to be gained from extending these services south, or running ATW services up the mid-cheshire line, once the 20mph "Screech Zone" has been bought up to standard?
Put simply: some of the ATW N.Wales/Chester - Manchester services have been lengthened from 3-car class 175 to 4-car class 158.
Also, I think one of the 4-car 158 workings out of Manchester splits at Chester with one unit (2 coaches) going to Llandudno and the other going to Holyhead.
I'd suggest that such a split would take place at the Junction!
Put simply: some of the ATW N.Wales/Chester - Manchester services have been lengthened from 3-car class 175 to 4-car class 158.
Also, I think one of the 4-car 158 workings out of Manchester splits at Chester with one unit (2 coaches) going to Llandudno and the other going to Holyhead.
I'd suggest that such a split would take place at the Junction!
Obviously stock requirements have been evaluated but the actual details would still be under wraps at the moment so what we are discussing now is pure surmising and personal ideas and suggestions.
The MK 3's moving to Crewe after the Cambrian/HOW announcement from WG is pure coincidence?
The going-away shot shows the fine lines of these locomotives; the 'rumour factory' says they will soon be working from Holyhead to Cardiff as well as Birmingham to Marylebone. [The first chance to travel behind a 68 may be the Pathfinder Tours 'Caterpillar Cat' excursion from Eastleigh to Crewe and Chester planned for 19 July, named after the Caterpillar company whose diesel engines are fitted in these locos.]
The split on the 0850 ex Manchester is at Chester, the front unit is fast to Holyhead, the rear unit does the usual all stops to Llandudno.
And it's the only 4-car working (0712 Chester-Manchester).
I presumed the 0740 out of Chester was also a four car 158?, ATW announced both 0712 & 0740 three car 175s were being strengthened to 4 car 158s due to overcrowding, the announcement was over a year ago,unless this has changed.
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I agree, but many have their fingers on the pulse.Obviously stock requirements have been evaluated but the actual details would still be under wraps at the moment so what we are discussing now is pure surmising and personal ideas and suggestions.
I presumed the 0740 out of Chester was also a four car 158?, ATW announced both 0712 & 0740 three car 175s were being strengthened to 4 car 158s due to overcrowding, the announcement was over a year ago,unless this has changed.
There was a rake of Mk 3 coaches that have been stored at Long Marston that ATW own that have been moved to Crewe for refurbishment according to last week's edition of RAIL.
That depends which mark3s they are. If it's just the Gerald spare set, I expect it is just a coincidence.The MK 3's moving to Crewe after the Cambrian/HOW announcement from WG is pure coincidence?
ATW don't own any mark3s. In fact, I think they sold the Cardiff Bay slammer unit so they don't own any stock anymore. If the mark3s at Crewe are from Long Marston though then it doesn't sound like the Gerald spare set so maybe there is something in the rumours after all.There was a rake of Mk 3 coaches that have been stored at Long Marston that ATW own that have been moved to Crewe for refurbishment according to last week's edition of RAIL.
DRS refurbished/are refurbishing mark2s (inc. DBSOs) for the Cumbrian Coast 'GloEx' service though. And I don't think the service actually happened. On that basis, refurbishment of LHCS doesn't seem to be any guarantee of work.They are said to be 4xFO (3 ex DRS, 1 ex Cargo-D), so not used by ATW in the past. Arriva (or one of its TOCs) must be sure of work to have them refurbished.
Are you suggesting a Manchester - Altrincham - Chester - Wrexham service when the redoubling between Wrexham and Chester is done? If so, it sounds like it might be a good idea. Might run into problems with the franchise map though, and the normal shortage of rolling stock.
There was a rake of Mk 3 coaches that have been stored at Long Marston that ATW own that have been moved to Crewe for refurbishment according to last week's edition of RAIL.
But...
Modern Railways (May) has a very similar picture of these Mk3s moving to Crewe, but says this is "thought to be in preparation for work with DRS on summer extras in East Anglia".
ATW don't own any mark3s. In fact, I think they sold the Cardiff Bay slammer unit so they don't own any stock anymore. If the mark3s at Crewe are from Long Marston though then it doesn't sound like the Gerald spare set so maybe there is something in the rumours after all.
Apologies, I shouldn't have used the word "own".
The report in RAIL (on page 33) states that the four Mk3 FO have been stored at Long Marston for many years, and are going to Crewe for overhaul for use by ATW later this year.
The 08:50 ex-Manchester splits at Chester with one half operating fast to Holyhead, and the other half operating a stopping service to Llandudno.
I forgot about the 0740 (0634 from Llandudno).
It doesn't appear to divide anywhere, so not sure if it stays 4-car all day.
They are said to be 4xFO (3 ex DRS, 1 ex Cargo-D), so not used by ATW in the past.
Arriva (or one of its TOCs) must be sure of work to have them refurbished.
The 07 40 ex Chester did not go to 2X158s and is 175/1.
The 07 40 ex Chester did not go to 2X158s and is 175/1.
Can I just clarify:
The 0712 ex-Chester is 2x158 which then operates the 08:50 ex-Manchester.
And you're saying that the 07:40 ex-Chester (06:34 ex-Llandudno) is a Class 175/1.
What operates the 06:40 ex-Chester (05:46 ex-Llandudno Junction)?
A 175/0 from last December in lieu of 175/1 because it's work is more suited for the rest of the day to be a 175/0 and the 175/1 working a diagram with a greater need. Mind you, the 07 40 ex Chester can now have up to 40 people standing by the time it reaches Manchester.
There would not be enough 158s to have 2 4 Car Combos.
No. A 2 Car (175/0) which, as I said, fills up. The 175 (3 Car) which previously worked it changes Diagrams to use a 3 Car on the 15 30 Manchester to Carmarthen. The rest of the 2 Car Diagram entails working Llandudno to Cardiff/Swansea/Holyhead as a result of Gerallt's return working changing.Is this 175 from last December a three car? on another point anyone from Wrexham to Manchester for work, the only option is to catch the 0557 which forms part of the 0712 4 car 158 combo,then wait 50 minutes at Chester for it.
The 0700 from Wrexham misses the 0712 by two/three minutes, due to the VT having to wait for platform four,which the 0712 to Manchester departs from,a real cock up to force people into cars.
No. A 2 Car (175/0) which, as I said, fills up. The 175 (3 Car) which previously worked it changes Diagrams to use a 3 Car on the 15 30 Manchester to Carmarthen. The rest of the 2 Car Diagram entails working Llandudno to Cardiff/Swansea/Holyhead as a result of Gerallt's return working changing.
They certainly are from Long Marston, we published a picture of them being transferred not long ago, and they belong to DB Regio, who I believe bought up all the remaining Mk3s a while back. See
http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1404a.htm
Not quite. It's the 06 40 Chester that's a 2 Car and the 07 40 a 3 Car 175.
The evening extra is from Llandudno and achieved by altering the normal pattern at Llandudno. Instead of Manchester/Llandudno/LlandudnoJn/Llandudno/Manchester pattern a couple of short trips to Llandudno Jn in the afternoon are knocked out and thus it becomes possible by extending to Manchester, and the next one down does likewise..
Hope you understand this, Bob.
Not quite. It's the 06 40 Chester that's a 2 Car and the 07 40 a 3 Car 175.
The evening extra is from Llandudno and achieved by altering the normal pattern at Llandudno. Instead of Manchester/Llandudno/LlandudnoJn/Llandudno/Manchester pattern a couple of short trips to Llandudno Jn in the afternoon are knocked out and thus it becomes possible by extending to Manchester, and the next one down does likewise..
Hope you understand this, Bob.
Yes, and the waits of two trains at Mayfield are also truncated as well to gain time on the Piccadilly turnround.
Thanks for all these explanations.
Having studied the timetables and the posts on these fora, I can certainly see how intertwined the 158 diagrams are. By my calculations 17 158 units are in use in North Wales and on the Cambrian lines each weekday, with 7 sets overnight at Machynlleth, 1 at Pwllheli, 1 at Birmingham, 2 each at Holyhead and Shrewsbury, and 4 at Chester.
How many are in South Wales, and how do they swap over?