Cambridge: new stabling sidings and train wash for Thameslink

[MikePJ]

For the last few weeks there's been quite a lot of activity at Cambridge station with an old siding being lifted and relaid. The only reference I can find to it is on the Thameslink Programme website, which is vague and out of date - http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/improvements/cambridge-sidings

Govia Thameslink Railway are planning to build new stabling facilities in Cambridge where the new Thameslink trains will be kept, cleaned and prepared for service. From early 2016, there will be new 12-carriage trains which, by May 2018, will add 1,000 extra standard-class seats to busy services in the morning peak. Without the sidings this much-needed additional capacity cannot be delivered.

At this facility, staff will:

clean inside and outside the trains
empty the toilets and refresh the water tanks
prepare the trains for service
undertake minor repairs that might otherwise keep a train out of service

There will also be a train wash and mess facilities for the drivers and cleaners. Govia Thameslink Railway will design and construct the facility and Thameslink will manage its operation.

.

Does that mean they're building a whole new train wash? There's an existing one on a line just parallel to it, though it's in a dead-end siding and you might not get a 12-car 700 through it without running out of track!

Does anyone have any more details of what's planned for this site? The construction work at the moment suggests just a single additional electrified stabling loop, parallel to the existing two.

 

[jopsuk]

The existing carriage wash can take 8 carriages maximum. The new one will take 12 carriages. The reconfigured sidings are, as far I understand, also arranged to more than just safeguard, but to actively help the potential creation of an east side entrance to the station

 

[MikePJ]

Bumping this very old thread of mine to say that works have started in earnest on relocating the train wash - the headshunt beyond the existing washer has been lifted, and there's a lot of site fencing around the sidings suggesting that the track layout is going to be significantly reconfigured.

 

[Steve Harris]

Bumping this very old thread of mine to say that works have started in earnest on relocating the train wash - the headshunt beyond the existing washer has been lifted, and there's a lot of site fencing around the sidings suggesting that the track layout is going to be significantly reconfigured.

All the work you mention is tied in with this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/mill-road-cambridge-bridge-shut-in-2019.

 

[richieb1971]

Nice to know Thameslink actually do clean their trains. In Bedford 5 years ago I could scrape the dirt off with a trough.

 

[AM9]

Nice to know Thameslink actually do clean their trains. In Bedford 5 years ago I could scrape the dirt off with a trough.

A trough?

 

[MikePJ]

In case anyone's interested - works have resumed in earnest at Cambridge in the last couple of weeks. All the track leading to the former train wash has been lifted, and the train wash has been demolished. The pitched-roofed building (traincrew facilities, I think) just below the cycle bridge has been demolished as well. I'm trying to guess the final layout from the civils works: as far as I can see, several new long sidings will be laid parallel to the existing ones, and one of these will host the train wash, judging by the very substantial drains being installed at the moment.

 

[TheDavibob]

Alterations to Mill Road bridge (bringing more spans into use for siding purposes, plus some other things) have been waved through planning, too (though I can't find a particularly suitable reference). The planning application has some pretty pictures of track arrangement, but I'll be honest I have no idea how this compares to the current setup/planned setup.

 

[MikePJ]

Alterations to Mill Road bridge (bringing more spans into use for siding purposes, plus some other things) have been waved through planning, too (though I can't find a particularly suitable reference). The planning application has some pretty pictures of track arrangement, but I'll be honest I have no idea how this compares to the current setup/planned setup.

Thanks!

Here's the proposed new track plan from that application, it's quite a big change from the existing. - https://idox.cambridge.gov.uk/onlin...18_1372_CAP18-GENERAL_ARRANGEMENT-3360520.pdf

Existing layout https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1961118,0.1400996,296m/data=!3m1!1e3

So the area that's being worked on at the moment is the future Reception Sidings, and the new carriage wash is actually going to be north of Mill Road bridge. Thanks!

 

[Steve Harris]

In case anyone's interested - works have resumed in earnest at Cambridge in the last couple of weeks. All the track leading to the former train wash has been lifted, and the train wash has been demolished. The pitched-roofed building (traincrew facilities, I think) just below the cycle bridge has been demolished as well. I'm trying to guess the final layout from the civils works: as far as I can see, several new long sidings will be laid parallel to the existing ones, and one of these will host the train wash, judging by the very substantial drains being installed at the moment.

That's a bummer. I managed to track bash the wash when it was first installed in the 1980's.

On a more serious note... Does anyone know how long the bridge will be shut to road traffic for ? (For the reinstatement of the spans).

 

[MikePJ]

Steve: It was first mooted as a two month closure in the consultation before Christmas. They've now agreed to mitigate the impact on pedestrians and cyclists by keeping the bridge partly open or providing a temporary alternative during the works, but it's not clear if that'll mean that the main works will take longer. Press release from GTR here: http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia-...footbridge-during-rail-bridge-closure-2816001

 

[Steve Harris]

Steve: It was first mooted as a two month closure in the consultation before Christmas. They've now agreed to mitigate the impact on pedestrians and cyclists by keeping the bridge partly open or providing a temporary alternative during the works, but it's not clear if that'll mean that the main works will take longer. Press release from GTR here: http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/govia-...footbridge-during-rail-bridge-closure-2816001

Thanx for that Mike

 

[MikePJ]

Construction has advanced quite a long way in the last month - here are some pictures taken from the cycle bridge.


Looking south towards London: tracklaying has started on two of the new reception sidings.



Looking south towards London: the former train wash area is a hive of activity




Looking north towards Ely: the EWS traincrew facility has been demolished, with its concrete pad used temporarily for site generators



Looking north towards Ely: new OHLE portals have been put in place, replacing the former headspans here. Trackwork reconfiguration is being worked around operational needs - the sidings to the right of the blue barrier are still in regular use, even the one that ends just before the dumper truck.

 

[SIMBY]

Hi all,

I’m a new member and a resident in the area behind the proposed new train washing facility.

Does anyone know how loud this facility is likely to be, and the dispersion risks of the chemicals used?

There are folks on Great Eastern Street (which backs onto the site) who are worried about the new facility keeping them awake and using fairly toxic chemicals for washing the brake dust etc. (presumably something like Eurowash).

On noise: The train wash will be covered, but presumably there will still be noise of washing. Govia Thameslink says that it will operate 24/7 and primarily 11pm-3am. Does anyone know where we could find measurements of decibels and likely operational volumes?

On chemicals: Greater Anglia says that it uses Eurowash (https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/abo...icles/improvements-to-exterior-train-cleaning). The Chela product site says that Eurowash has passed EU tests and is sent directly to sewers (https://chela.co.uk/product/eurowash-1000-112-2/) but is the covered site likely to totally prevent some of the chemicals dispersing into the airs at each end and/or seeping into the ground?

 

[NeilWatson]

Your first link refers to ‘Eurowash’ being used for one-off deep cleaning by hand; in Ilford

 

[Steve Harris]

Hi all,

I’m a new member and a resident in the area behind the proposed new train washing facility.

Does anyone know how loud this facility is likely to be, and the dispersion risks of the chemicals used?

There are folks on Great Eastern Street (which backs onto the site) who are worried about the new facility keeping them awake and using fairly toxic chemicals for washing the brake dust etc. (presumably something like Eurowash).

On noise: The train wash will be covered, but presumably there will still be noise of washing. Govia Thameslink says that it will operate 24/7 and primarily 11pm-3am. Does anyone know where we could find measurements of decibels and likely operational volumes?

On chemicals: Greater Anglia says that it uses Eurowash (https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/abo...icles/improvements-to-exterior-train-cleaning). The Chela product site says that Eurowash has passed EU tests and is sent directly to sewers (https://chela.co.uk/product/eurowash-1000-112-2/) but is the covered site likely to totally prevent some of the chemicals dispersing into the airs at each end and/or seeping into the ground?

I did find this http://www.industrycortex.com/datasheets/profile/1254453272 which is the datasheet for Eurowash. If that is any help.

I will add, just because GA use it, it doesn't necessarily mean that GTR use it.

 

[hwl]

The machine wash chemical are different to the handwash type chemicals discussed above and will tend to be only slightly more aggressive than automated carwash type chemicals e.g. a neutral or slightly acidic detergent with a wetting agent and biocide to stop algae growth given most of the water/chemicals are collected, filtered and reused.

Have a look at these:
https://www.j1technologies.com/j1-technologies-speciality-chemical-company
https://www.gbr-rail.com/products/train-wash-systems/
https://arrowchem.com/sectors/rail/ (screen wash)
(Given it is GTR / Siemens probably the 3 above)

http://www.wilcomatic.co.uk/chemicals
http://www.travik.co.uk/products/rail/

Dispersion risk is neglible and they are pretty quiet (no blowers unlike automated car washes) and the trains go through at ~3mph.

 

[Steve Harris]

The machine wash chemical are different to the handwash type chemicals discussed above and will tend to be only slightly more aggressive than automated carwash type chemicals e.g. a neutral or slightly acidic detergent with a wetting agent and biocide to stop algae growth given most of the water/chemicals are collected, filtered and reused.

Have a look at these:
https://www.j1technologies.com/j1-technologies-speciality-chemical-company
https://www.gbr-rail.com/products/train-wash-systems/
https://arrowchem.com/sectors/rail/ (screen wash)
(Given it is GTR / Siemens probably the 3 above)

http://www.wilcomatic.co.uk/chemicals
http://www.travik.co.uk/products/rail/

Dispersion risk is neglible and they are pretty quiet (no blowers unlike automated car washes) and the trains go through at ~3mph.

The biocide will no doubt be in there to not just stop algae growth but other things like legionella (which can be far more dangerous).

 

[hwl]

The biocide will no doubt be in there to not just stop algae growth but other things like legionella (which can be far more dangerous).

Legionella is unlikely at the temperatures involved in train washing for at least 11 months of the year!
(I did have a look at the active ingredients in the before commenting originally and none of the biocide ingredients are on the top of anyone's anti legionella treatment list and also in higher dosing levels than legionella treatments)

 

[Steve Harris]

Legionella is unlikely at the temperatures involved in train washing for at least 11 months of the year!

With the right conditions it can take less than a month for an outbrake. I presume that you know legionella starts to grow at >20 oC so I wouldn't count it out just yet. I agree, our summers have been awful in the last few years, but in them years we have had some rather hot spells along with the rain.

It really depends if the water used is stored in a tank in a tin shed or a place which gets direct sunlight (warmth) as this will have a bearing if that threshole is reached. If it is stored in a pit in the ground it probably would be less likely to reach the temperatures needed.
Of course if the water is filtered in such a way that it doesn't have any bacteria, there is no likelihood that you will get any legionella anyway.

 

[SIMBY]

Thanks hwl, Steve, and Neil that’s super-helpful!

 

[Clip]

With the right conditions it can take less than a month for an outbrake. I presume that you know legionella starts to grow at >20 oC so I wouldn't count it out just yet. I agree, our summers have been awful in the last few years, but in them years we have had some rather hot spells along with the rain.

It really depends if the water used is stored in a tank in a tin shed or a place which gets direct sunlight (warmth) as this will have a bearing if that threshole is reached. If it is stored in a pit in the ground it probably would be less likely to reach the temperatures needed.
Of course if the water is filtered in such a way that it doesn't have any bacteria, there is no likelihood that you will get any legionella anyway.

I would imagine that the water is recycled through a few washes too before it empties and gets refilled

 

[hwl]

With the right conditions it can take less than a month for an outbrake. I presume that you know legionella starts to grow at >20 oC so I wouldn't count it out just yet. I agree, our summers have been awful in the last few years, but in them years we have had some rather hot spells along with the rain.

It really depends if the water used is stored in a tank in a tin shed or a place which gets direct sunlight (warmth) as this will have a bearing if that threshole is reached. If it is stored in a pit in the ground it probably would be less likely to reach the temperatures needed.
Of course if the water is filtered in such a way that it doesn't have any bacteria, there is no likelihood that you will get any legionella anyway.

It really only gets going above 25C (the quick growth region is 35-45) and 0.5ppm chlorine in the water is usually enough to prevent anything happening and mains water contains ~4ppm so if the loss rate is >12.5% then no need for any treatment! (Everything else present will kill it off anyway.)

The real legionella danger comes from cooling system condensate with no chlorine content which is also usually nice warmed up.

 

[hwl]

Thanks hwl, Steve, and Neil that’s super-helpful!

It will be hardly any different to the old washer that was removed less than 18 months ago that they have probably completely forgotten about!

 

[Steve Harris]

It really only gets going above 25C (the quick growth region is 35-45) and 0.5ppm chlorine in the water is usually enough to prevent anything happening and mains water contains ~4ppm so if the loss rate is >12.5% then no need for any treatment! (Everything else present will kill it off anyway.)

But it can "get going" as you put it, at 21oC hence why I typed > 20oC (greater than 20oC). Data on growth rates versus temperature is wildly available online. However if the water is recyled, that loss rate will be different, (if it is not treated) will it not? One must remembe that water mustn't remain stagnant for long periods of time otherwise it can become susceptible to possible contamination.

The real legionella danger comes from cooling system condensate with no chlorine content which is also usually nice warmed up.

Only if it is atomized. Legionella needs to be in a vapour to infect you.

One of my previous jobs was dosing cooling towers and other various water systems. In hot weather we had one particular potable water system which used to reach the high 20's oC due to travelling through a tin shed) and it had to drained for several minutes to mitigate potential risk. Therefore, I do have a reasonable understanding on risks involved. Admittedly they should be quite low in the environment being discussed but in certain situations that won't be zero unless the correct steps are taken to mitigate any potential risk.

Getting back on topic....

It will be hardly any different to the old washer that was removed less than 18 months ago that they have probably completely forgotten about!

Which was the south side of Mill Road bridge behind Rustat Avenue. The OP lives in Great Eastern Street and going on what he has said the new washer is going to be sited to the west of Great Eastern Street north of Mill Road. So not in the same place as it was before.

I think what SIMBY is getting at is the new washer will be potentially affecting new residents compared to the previous washer (which has been dismantled). Hence why he has joined the forum and asking what possible impact it may have.

 

[Steve Harris]

I would imagine that the water is recycled through a few washes too before it empties and gets refilled

As you or me don't know how the water is recycled or at what stage it gets dumped to foul sewer. I can't say either way if there is or is not any potential risk. Hence why I have used the words "certain situations" , "correct steps" and "filtered in such a way".

 

[MikePJ]

Hi all,

I’m a new member and a resident in the area behind the proposed new train washing facility.

Does anyone know how loud this facility is likely to be, and the dispersion risks of the chemicals used?

There are folks on Great Eastern Street (which backs onto the site) who are worried about the new facility keeping them awake and using fairly toxic chemicals for washing the brake dust etc. (presumably something like Eurowash).

On noise: The train wash will be covered, but presumably there will still be noise of washing. Govia Thameslink says that it will operate 24/7 and primarily 11pm-3am. Does anyone know where we could find measurements of decibels and likely operational volumes?

On chemicals: Greater Anglia says that it uses Eurowash (https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/abo...icles/improvements-to-exterior-train-cleaning). The Chela product site says that Eurowash has passed EU tests and is sent directly to sewers (https://chela.co.uk/product/eurowash-1000-112-2/) but is the covered site likely to totally prevent some of the chemicals dispersing into the airs at each end and/or seeping into the ground?

Hello neighbour! I live a stone's throw from the old train wash (in Rustat Rd, about 100m from the cycle bridge). I can hand-on-heart say that I've never heard the train wash nor noticed any plumes of detergent or anything coming off it in the five years that I've lived here. I guess the people nearest to it were the flats in Rustat Avenue, but it would be far less intrusive than diesel engine noise and station announcements, both of which can be heard on the street, especially on a quiet day.

 

[Clip]

As you or me don't know how the water is recycled or at what stage it gets dumped to foul sewer. I can't say either way if there is or is not any potential risk. Hence why I have used the words "certain situations" , "correct steps" and "filtered in such a way".

You're right that we don't but I believe all new train washes do such a thing

 

[MikePJ]

Bumping this very old thread to say that the sidings look like they're close to being commissioned - in the last few days the hoses have been fitted to the toilet tank emptying equipment.

 

[bspahh]

https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/ne...mbridge-residents-successfully-stall-18743680 has an update on the train wash at Cambridge for the Thameslink trains:

Steve Lammin is an engineering director at GTR. He said: “Construction of the carriage wash machine and its enclosure is postponed while the planning situation is clarified for the enclosure.

“We and Network Rail have been clear to the community that if additional planning consents were required for any elements of the work then they would be sought.

“We are continuing other work relating to the Cambridge depot upgrade, which will support our current timetabled services. This includes the upgrade of both north and south sidings, signalling work, and the construction of a connecting track and overhead wires under Mill Road Bridge between the two sets of sidings – with associated groundwork, drainage and piling.”

A spokesperson for Cambridge City Council said: “The council had a meeting with Network Rail last week where they confirmed that they will be submitting a prior approval application. They are currently putting together the required information to facilitate that submission, which we are expecting to receive in the next few weeks.

“Network Rail have stated to the council that the activities that the residents are seeing and will continue to see relate to other works planned north of Mill Road Bridge, which are not related to the building of the carriage wash and so would be covered under permitted development.

“Network Rail are aware that any works that form part of the prior approval application taking place before the application decision would invalidate that process and that a full planning application would then be required for the train carriage wash.

“We are intent on getting the relevant applications submitted and that Network Rail follow the correct process in having any impacts assessed in relation to the development of the carriage wash."