Campaign to restore passenger services on the Middlewich Link Line

[no commute yet]

Heartbreaking weekend recently - the sight of passenger trains running through Middlewich between Euston and Chester/Holyhead, knowing they couldn't stop here for us and that we won't see them again until the next engineering works.

15,000 of us live in Middlewich. I cannot tell you how much money must be lost to sitting in the traffic here. Made all the more frustrating by the knowledge we've got a working rail line but no passenger trains!

There's no 6th form school/college here so our young people have to go out of town to study - to Crewe or Greenbank - not easy when you're too young to drive! Shame you've no passenger trains I hear you say

If you don't, or can't, drive then you're pretty much trapped here as our bus service is limited and could only take you - via the usual lengthy customer collecting circuitous routes - to another town with a station. While that works if you can't/don't drive it puts drivers off and they simply drive to Crewe, Knutsford, Manchester etc and needlessly clog up the roads.

It seems Manchester Airport doesn't want the 15,000 extra customers there are here; Knutsford doesn't want to cut, at least, 20mins off their journey time to Crewe (if you can believe it, they currently go north and change at Stockport) and Altricham doesn't want a direct link to Crewe. All very odd and not very Northern Powerhouse.

So, why am I here? For help, if I may be so bold. It seems to me that gathered here are all the brains and passion in the rail industry. So, how do we end the ridiculous impasse that is seeing the Middlewich Rail Link still without passenger trains?

P.S. I've put this tread here because for the Link to work for Middlewich we need our station back. it shut in the 1950s and has since been demolished.

Thanks in advance,
No commute yet.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I can understand your annoyance but I think you're making a huge presumption to assume that all 15,000 inhabitants of Middlewich are potential rail customers.

 

[gordonthemoron]

well, I believe there are plans to improve the Manchester-Stockport-altrincham-Northwich- Chester line to have 2TPH between Manchester and Northwich and to make the Chester-Manchester-Chester service semi fast. So, why not extend the Northwich terminators to Crewe via Middlewich?

 

[no commute yet]

Good point Captain. I'm pleased to say that a study done a few years ago gave this route a 5:1 cost benefit ratio and found it was financially viable. I've (hopefully) attached the link here: http://www.mcrua.org.uk/uploads/reo...gers---final-report--july-2009_1248946031.pdf


Gordonnotamoron, that sound like a plan. I keep hearing about CP6, CP9 etc but Middlewich never seems to be in these control point things. It's seems silly that in these straightened times such a quick win isn't being taken advantage of

 

[pemma]

Good point Captain. I'm pleased to say that a study done a few years ago gave this route a 5:1 cost benefit ratio and found it was financially viable. I've (hopefully) attached the link here: http://www.mcrua.org.uk/uploads/reo...gers---final-report--july-2009_1248946031.pdf

One of the main reason for independent consultations coming up with the 5:1 ratio is because there is a high level of demand for London from the Northwich, Knutsford and Altrincham areas and quite a bit of demand for Birmingham so having connecting services without having to first go in the wrong direction or requiring a walk between Greenbank and Hartford is seen as very beneficial.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

well, I believe there are plans to improve the Manchester-Stockport-altrincham-Northwich- Chester line to have 2TPH between Manchester and Northwich and to make the Chester-Manchester-Chester service semi fast. So, why not extend the Northwich terminators to Crewe via Middlewich?

The December 2017 timetable will be something like the following. The times are just examples which would meet the ITT requirements:

Departures from Piccadilly:
06:15 Chester (all stations)
07:15 Chester (all stations)
07:45 Greenbank (all stations)
08:15 Chester (semi-fast between Stockport and Northwich)
08:45 Northwich (all stations)
09:15 Chester (semi-fast between Stockport and Northwich)
09:45 Northwich (all stations)
then at the same times each hour until:
16:15 Chester (all stations)
16:45 Chester (all stations)
17:15 Chester (all stations)
17:45 Chester (all stations)
18:15 Chester (all stations)
then hourly until
23:15 Chester (all stations)

Arrivals at Piccadilly:
07:30 Chester (all stations)
08:00 Chester (all stations)
08:30 Chester (all stations)
09:00 Chester (all stations)
09:30 Chester (all stations)
10:00 Northwich (all stations)
10:30 Chester (semi-fast between Northwich and Stockport)
then at the same times each hour until:
16:30 Chester (stopping at all stations to Northwich, then Knutsford, then all stations to Stockport)
17:00 Northwich (all stations)
17:30 Chester (semi-fast between Northwich and Stockport)
18:00 Northwich (all stations)
18:30 Chester (semi-fast between Northwich and Stockport)
19:00 Northwich (all stations)
19:30 Chester (stopping at all stations to Knutsford, then Altrincham and Stockport)
20:30 Chester (all stations)
21:30 Chester (all stations)
22:45 Chester (all stations)
00:15 Chester (all stations)

The ones highlighted in red are where the minimum service requirements requires a change in the normal service pattern due to school/college starting/ending times. There would be some times were there is no service terminating at Northwich which could be extended. Also while the requirement would require an arrival at Piccadilly from Northwich at something like 19:00, it would likely run from Chester given the Northwich departures from Manchester end by 16:00.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Leaving aside the fact that even if the station was built at Middlewich there are currently no spare trains to run an extra service, are there any infrastructure works that would be needed to reopen? Bearing in mind that the use of the line for diversions does not necessarily mean that the line is suitable, for example the route through Brighouse was regularly used as a diversionary route for Transpennine services but reopening the station and reintroduction of scheduled services required the rebuilding of the A641 (Huddersfield to Bradford Road) bridge over the line.

 

[pemma]

Leaving aside the fact that even if the station was built at Middlewich there are currently no spare trains to run an extra service, are there any infrastructure works that would be needed to reopen? Bearing in mind that the use of the line for diversions does not necessarily mean that the line is suitable, for example the route through Brighouse was regularly used as a diversionary route for Transpennine services but reopening the station and reintroduction of scheduled services required the rebuilding of the A641 (Huddersfield to Bradford Road) bridge over the line.

The line would need some work to improve line speeds, which would also improve things for freight and diverted trains. If the line speeds on the Leftwich viaduct were also improved at the same time it would take over 20 minutes off the journey time of diverted Chester to Crewe services.

Middlewich station would have to be rebuilt.

Northwich platform 3 (adjacent to platform 2 but fenced off with wire fencing) would need to be re-opened and would need disabled access from platform 1 (something that is currently missing for platform 2.) The line through platform 3 is properly signaled and freight does use it currently.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Middlewich station would have to be rebuilt.

Would it be possible to use the existing platforms of the original Middlewich Station? looking on street view I notice the route becomes twin track on the Sandbach side of the A54 road bridge just before the disused platforms.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Would it be possible to use the existing platforms of the original Middlewich Station? looking on street view I notice the route becomes twin track on the Sandbach side of the A54 road bridge just before the disused platforms.

That'll push up the costs of a new station: two platforms means an expensive universally accessible footbridge...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The line needs a lot of work to get it up to decent passenger speeds.
Although the signalling has been updated, the line itself is in a very poor state - 20mph throughout.
It has only ever been single track with one loop at Middlewich.
It's a pity the western extension from the airport seems to have gone quiet - that was supposed to have jump-started the upgrade.
Middlewich folk can also look forward to HS2 passing imperiously just to the west.
Maybe something will fall out of the general airport/HS2 development.
Part of the problem is Cheshire's (East and West) reluctance to spend money on rail.

 

[alastair]

Heartbreaking weekend recently - the sight of passenger trains running through Middlewich between Euston and Chester/Holyhead, knowing they couldn't stop here for us and that we won't see them again until the next engineering works.

15,000 of us live in Middlewich. I cannot tell you how much money must be lost to sitting in the traffic here. Made all the more frustrating by the knowledge we've got a working rail line but no passenger trains!

There's no 6th form school/college here so our young people have to go out of town to study - to Crewe or Greenbank - not easy when you're too young to drive! Shame you've no passenger trains I hear you say

If you don't, or can't, drive then you're pretty much trapped here as our bus service is limited and could only take you - via the usual lengthy customer collecting circuitous routes - to another town with a station. While that works if you can't/don't drive it puts drivers off and they simply drive to Crewe, Knutsford, Manchester etc and needlessly clog up the roads.

It seems Manchester Airport doesn't want the 15,000 extra customers there are here; Knutsford doesn't want to cut, at least, 20mins off their journey time to Crewe (if you can believe it, they currently go north and change at Stockport) and Altricham doesn't want a direct link to Crewe. All very odd and not very Northern Powerhouse.

So, why am I here? For help, if I may be so bold. It seems to me that gathered here are all the brains and passion in the rail industry. So, how do we end the ridiculous impasse that is seeing the Middlewich Rail Link still without passenger trains?

P.S. I've put this tread here because for the Link to work for Middlewich we need our station back. it shut in the 1950s and has since been demolished.

Thanks in advance,
No commute yet.

As far as I can see Middlewich has a bus service to Winsford station running from 0715 to 2311 running half-hourly(except in the evenings)taking just 8 minutes. Sounds quite good compared with many places?

 

[6Gman]

The line needs a lot of work to get it up to decent passenger speeds.
Although the signalling has been updated, the line itself is in a very poor state - 20mph throughout.
It has only ever been single track with one loop at Middlewich.
It's a pity the western extension from the airport seems to have gone quiet - that was supposed to have jump-started the upgrade.
Middlewich folk can also look forward to HS2 passing imperiously just to the west.
Maybe something will fall out of the general airport/HS2 development.
Part of the problem is Cheshire's (East and West) reluctance to spend money on rail.

As above.

The p-way is in a very poor condition.

I suspect there may also be problems with siting a Middlewich station given the development which has taken place over the years. Car parking? And from a fair chunk of the town it's probably quicker to drive to Sandbach station rather than into the middle of Middlewich.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's no 6th form school/college here so our young people have to go out of town to study - to Crewe or Greenbank - not easy when you're too young to drive! Shame you've no passenger trains I hear you say


Thanks in advance,
No commute yet.

So with a population of c.14,000 you will have perhaps 400 16/17 year olds. Say half go to 6th FC - that's 200, divided between Crewe and Greenbank.

I assume two coaches tour the town then head to Crewe; and the same for Greenbank.

A train service wouldn't run to Greenbank - and would youngsters really walk to Middlewich station for a train to Crewe, then walk to college rather than use a bus which takes them from their local area straight to the college car park? I think not.

 

[pemma]

Although the signalling has been updated, the line itself is in a very poor state - 20mph throughout.

Is it actually 20mph for everything or just Voyagers which are limited to 20mph? I recall people saying the reason EMT split Liverpool-Norwich services on Grand National Saturdays in the past was because if they used 222s in Norfolk they would have to run at a much lower speed than Sprinters and wouldn't be able to keep to the normal timings.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A train service wouldn't run to Greenbank - and would youngsters really walk to Middlewich station for a train to Crewe, then walk to college rather than use a bus which takes them from their local area straight to the college car park? I think not.

Actually they would. The parents will make their kids walk if they can make a significant saving by putting them on the train, as has already happened in some Cheshire towns.

Knutsford used to have 2 buses to St Nicholas High School, 1 bus to Sir John Deanes College and 1 bus to Mid-Cheshire college. The council withdrew subsides for school/college buses and Northern introduced reduced price scholar seasons tickets as an attempt to get all school/college pupils using season tickets.

What happened next is 4 buses became 2 buses and Northern had a lot more passengers, despite only offering 1 stop in Knutsford opposed to the few buses offer and Greenbank station being further from the school/college.

 

[Class 170101]

Is it actually 20mph for everything or just Voyagers which are limited to 20mph? I recall people saying the reason EMT split Liverpool-Norwich services on Grand National Saturdays in the past was because if they used 222s in Norfolk they would have to run at a much lower speed than Sprinters and wouldn't be able to keep to the normal timings.

222s are subject to severe speed restrictions over the Fens between Peterborough ad Norwich via Ely, as low as 40mph between Ely and Brandon.

 

[Crossover]

I did the Middlewich diversion the other week - it was tediously slow. The few of us there were talking about the possibility/plans to reopen it on a permanent basis, but they would certainly have to do something with that linespeed to make it anything like useful

 

[Kettledrum]

So, why am I here? For help, if I may be so bold. It seems to me that gathered here are all the brains and passion in the rail industry. So, how do we end the ridiculous impasse that is seeing the Middlewich Rail Link still without passenger trains?

.

Just as in any industry, you will get a wide range of views from all the best brains. In some cases, some of the views may well be very negative, possibly based on years of experience where nothing happens because of x, y or z.

What schemes such as this really need is some real fresh thinking and innovative thinking along with a "can do attitude"

Chilton railways managed this with their franchise, but many of the other franchises lack the obligations or the incentives to progress schemes like Middlewich - despite the very positive business case.

My view is that the way to crack this is through careful specification and tough negotiations during the franchise process, but experience tells me that the TOCS have the spending power to employ the best negotiators and the best brains.

 

[The Planner]

It will still come down to ££££ and whether the DfT want to buy it, a TOC could push for it in a franchise bid but if it isnt in the spec it doesnt mean it is going to get anywhere, can do attitude or not. In the case of Chiltern, if East West is delayed then they will lose money, there is still the element of the gamble.

 

[edwin_m]

Is it actually 20mph for everything or just Voyagers which are limited to 20mph? I recall people saying the reason EMT split Liverpool-Norwich services on Grand National Saturdays in the past was because if they used 222s in Norfolk they would have to run at a much lower speed than Sprinters and wouldn't be able to keep to the normal timings.

Routes such as Peterborough-Norwich have differential restrictions so that lighter trains such as Sprinters can run faster than heavier ones like Voyagers. Since Middlewich hasn't had a passenger service for decades, there won't be any differential restrictions in force for passenger trains. Some detailed engineering might conclude that upgrading for passenger trains only is better value than upgrading for all trains.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Leaving aside the fact that even if the station was built at Middlewich, there are currently no spare trains to run an extra service.

A statement made many times during the last year prior to a rail service operating from Manchester to Blackburn over the Todmorden Chord.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is it actually 20mph for everything or just Voyagers which are limited to 20mph?

I did the Middlewich diversion the other week - it was tediously slow. The few of us there were talking about the possibility/plans to reopen it on a permanent basis, but they would certainly have to do something with that linespeed to make it anything like useful

The SA says it's 20mph throughout for all traffic and Voyagers stick to it, just ambling along.
It's only 10mph on the east/west connections at the Northwich end, and 15mph at the Sandbach end.
It's actually faster (25mph) through the slow/fast connections to the main line at Sandbach than anywhere on the branch.
It's a 30-minute plod on a diverted Voyager (plus the 20mph over Leftwich viaduct).
The CLC route itself is no great shakes either - nothing better than 60mph south of Skelton Jn.

 

[pemma]

The SA says it's 20mph throughout for all traffic and Voyagers stick to it, just ambling along.

I forgot Voyagers are the only non-freight that ever used the line, so no-one will have tried to get clearance for higher speeds for lighter DMUs.

The CLC route itself is no great shakes either - nothing better than 60mph south of Skelton Jn.

Given apart from the overnight ATW service all booked passenger services call at all stations between Navigation Road and Mouldsworth and are operated by 75mph DMUs, while I think there's a few places they could do with making line speed improvements*, overall it's not too bad. Especially considering in comparison ATW use 100mph capable trains on Manchester-Warrington-Chester and they don't do much running above 60mph.

* I'm thinking bringing the 50mph sections through Northenden and around Mickle Trafford up to 75mph and the Leftwich viaduct up to 50mph.

 

[DelW]

I forgot Voyagers are the only non-freight that ever used the line, so no-one will have tried to get clearance for higher speeds for lighter DMUs.

I went over it southbound on a loco-hauled railtour a few years ago. My recollection is that we were limited to 10mph over part of it (southern end?) but I'd have to dig out the itinerary and timings to check whether or not that's correct.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Good point Captain. I'm pleased to say that a study done a few years ago gave this route a 5:1 cost benefit ratio and found it was financially viable. I've (hopefully) attached the link here: http://www.mcrua.org.uk/uploads/reo...gers---final-report--july-2009_1248946031.pdf


Gordonnotamoron, that sound like a plan. I keep hearing about CP6, CP9 etc but Middlewich never seems to be in these control point things. It's seems silly that in these straightened times such a quick win isn't being taken advantage of

The capital costs in that report are very optimistic indeed, sadly. Given the state of the infrastructure, it could easily cost five times the £2.2m quoted, killing the business case (£50k for bridge repairs is repainting two bridges).

It would be much more viable if another scheme covered the infrastructure and signalling work...

 

[pemma]

The capital costs in that report are very optimistic indeed, sadly.

The report is 6 years old now so the prices are out of date. There's supposed to be a revised report being done now, which will likely take in to consideration higher prices, the significant increase in demand at Mid-Cheshire line stations in the past 6 years, the fact the Northern ITT requires the winning bidder to run extra services to/from Northwich and maybe the fact they'll be a new DMU order, which an extra unit or two could be added on to.

The £50,000 cost given was to "grout cracked masonry with resin (as has been done on the London – Portsmouth line,
which carries 10-car trains with axle-hung motors at speeds of 90mph)" So does anyone know what the cost of doing that on the London-Portsmouth line was?

 

[Oxfordblues]

The only train that's passed through Middlewich so far this week has been the 05:00 Ripple Lane-Peak Forest stone empties on Monday.

 

[Howardh]

Looking at an OS map, it does seem odd that there's a rail line (single track?) and a town on it with a population that will only grow and no station. There's possibly an argument for two stations, one in the centre and one in the industrial area. Getting the stations built (cost), and trains to call at them is another matter.
How much heavy rail useage is there between Northwich and Hale/Altrincham? Thinking an extention of the Metrolink might be possible one day, but if both can't run on heavy rail I can't see that happening, but if memory serves there's not that much train use on that line - one in each direction/hr outside the peaks?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thinking an extention of the Metrolink might be possible one day, but if both can't run on heavy rail I can't see that happening, but if memory serves there's not that much train use on that line - one in each direction/hr outside the peaks?

All the existing Manchester Metrolink system and the current 2CC line under construction plus the hoped-for Trafford Centre/Port Salford line have one thing in common. They all fall within the area known as the "TfGM empire".

Neither Cheshire East council nor Cheshire West and Chester council have had to make any budgetry allowances for any Metrolink extensions into their county areas and it will be most interesting to know of the currently felt feelings of either of these two councils.

 

[Howardh]

All the existing Manchester Metrolink system and the current 2CC line under construction plus the hoped-for Trafford Centre/Port Salford line have one thing in common. They all fall within the area known as the "TfGM empire".

Neither Cheshire East council nor Cheshire West and Chester council have had to make any budgetry allowances for any Metrolink extensions into their county areas and it will be most interesting to know of the currently felt feelings of either of these two councils.

Generally speaking, I just wonder how long is too long for a tram journey. They are great for 15-30 mins, but after that you notice the seats are uncomfortable, no toilets etc etc and I bet Middlewich/Northwich would be an hour or so including stopping at every station?
Even so, better than no service at all!

 

[pemma]

How much heavy rail useage is there between Northwich and Hale/Altrincham? Thinking an extention of the Metrolink might be possible one day, but if both can't run on heavy rail I can't see that happening, but if memory serves there's not that much train use on that line - one in each direction/hr outside the peaks?

Tram-train to Knutsford and beyond has been examined but it isn't being taken forward with at the time it being suggested alternative heavy rail options would provide better value for money. Rail North's electrification task force has recommended electrification of Stockport-Chester in CP6.

Northern ITT requires an enhanced service frequency from December 17 which will mean in the Chester direction there will be 20 daily services to Chester, plus 8 additional services to Northwich and 1 additional service to Greenbank. Also worth remembering the line is used for freight and diverted passenger services.

 

[yorksrob]

The capital costs in that report are very optimistic indeed, sadly. Given the state of the infrastructure, it could easily cost five times the £2.2m quoted, killing the business case (£50k for bridge repairs is repainting two bridges).

It would be much more viable if another scheme covered the infrastructure and signalling work...

Wouldn't the higher cost mentioned by yourself, be incurred by trying to fit the works in on a working passenger railway, rather than a freight only line which could be closed for a period during the works ?