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Campaign to restore passenger services on the Middlewich Link Line

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pemma

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Wow, 2 hours from idea to implementation ;)

It's already been discussed in this thread that they'll likely be services terminating at Northwich most hours from 2017 so I didn't think it needed mentioning again. 2tph to Chester is something MCRUA are pushing for but I'm personally not sure there is enough demand for 2tph on Monday-Fridays during school term time.

A second hourly Mid-Cheshire service was first mooted in a Network Rail RUS in 2007 but at that time the suggestion was an Altrincham to Northwich shuttle which Northern weren't keen on because they'd thought they'd lose revenue to Metrolink.

Does Stockport currently have the capacity to terminate 2 new services, or would one of them need to end at Altrincham (which I assume has the capability to turn back trains)?

It doesn't sound like you've been keeping up to date with developments. The TPE changes (sending more services to Victoria) will free up 3 paths an hour from Piccadilly for 'South Manchester' services. Hourly stoppers to Macclesfield, Northwich and New Mills Newton (on top of the existing standard pattern services) will use those paths. DfT suggested Northern bidders should consider speeding up existing services to Stoke, Chester and Buxton as a result of lesser user stations not needing 2tph.
 
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Rail Bus

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Well, the drawn representation of this red line would come as a devastating shock to all the residents on Rossmill Lane and on Carwood, whose executive-occupied properties command very high prices on account of being:-
1)...The sizeable type of properties they are.
2)...Having uncluttered greenfield views being the reason why such properties were first built and marketed.
Also would destroy the beautiful Bollin Valley
 

miami

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The point is, many areas need alternatives to roads, and at the moment they don't exist.

Well this is about Middlewich, and to traffic from Northwich, Knutsford and Altrincham to Crewe.

It's not to reduce traffic on the A556 (which won't be impacted by the Middlewich rail line according to the finance case) or in places from Altrincham north. From a glance at the finance case of those 340 people who will use the staiton, about 100 people go to crewe, about 100 to manchester, and 100 to Altrincham/Stockport, and then presumably return later. Another 40 will go from Crewe to Northwich, Knutsford and Altrincham, and 40 from N/K/A to Crewe. I suspect there will be very few interchanging at Northwich.

Is it to create more journeys that wouldn't otherwise be worthwhile (i.e. someone who is unable or unwilling to drive to their destination would use the train if it existed, but wouldn't use the bus)?

Is it to provide resilience in the transport network (like with the far north line)

Is it to reduce the cost to the economy (in time and money) of existing journeys

Is it to reduce the cost to the individual (in time and money) of existing journeys

Or is it to move existing journeys, perhaps reduce the traffic at railheads where people currently drive and park?

I'm impressed that a new station at Middlewich will only cost £370k, given a temporary station at Workington north cost £210k (£240k in todays money). I guess that 24/7 working really jacked up the price! A new car park at Leighton Buzzard station cost £1,000,000, so to reopen a line, open a new station and upgrade another station for £970k is amazing value for money.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in favour of it, the total cost is about 7 hours of a token bombing of Syria, and the returns look far better than the Borders line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They both create new journeys, however given that each new car trip can accommodate upto 7 people but generally closer to 1 person whilst each train or even carriage can accomodate quite a few people the impact on the system is less obvious for rail.

Also, generally the existing rail network can accommodate the growth in passenger demand with little in the way of engineering compared with road. Just look at the amount of railway engineering schemes have been done since privatisation which have increased capacity or created new lines compared with the numbers of extra passengers being carried on the rail network.

So how are those 4, 8 and 12 coach trains in the north west going? And the 6tph on the chester line?

The demand for road transport is inevitably far higher than that of rail because cars take people from where they are to where they want to be, where trains take them from somewhere else to somewhere else. Roads only create the demand for a journey in that they enable journeys that wouldn't normally be taken as the cost (in time/stress)/benefit ratio is lower.

A single carriageway road can generally take about 1,500 vehicles in each direction each hour (subject to junction capacity), which is somewhere in the region of 3,000 people per hour. Compare this with a train which running 6tph with 8 coaches (23m, assuming 63 people per coach) on each train can cater for similar number of people.

But people will only use the road or the rail if it goes where they want to go. Typically people don't "go out for a drive", they have a journey to make. A new road will mean taking that journey from somewhere else (a different road, a bus, a train), or allowing a journey to be made that would be otherwise not made (thus costing the economy if we accept that journeys lead to economic activity, and that that's a good thing).

Given that nowhere near 1500 people per hour use the chester-altrincham line, this line is more like 1500 people per day (in each direction - about 1 million journeys per year), this would be 2 cars per minute on a road, even if every person had their own car.

A station at middlewich will serve 680 people per day, or about 42 people per hour, or about 1 car every 4 minutes in each direction. It won't make any difference to traffic levels anywhere.
 

yorksrob

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Folks in Altrincham, Knutsford and Northwich would much rather the current Manchester to Chester service be improved

I'm sure that folks in Outer Mongolia would prefer commuter services in Ulan Bator to be improved, but that doesn't really impact the need for public transport in Middlewich.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Are there any residents? Everytime I walk up Carwood it's just builders and landscapers. I believe the business model in those houses is
1) Buy house
2) Knock it down
3) Build new house
4) Claim it's more expensive
5) Sell it to someone at step 1.
There's some right monstrosities that have been built recently.

Very good. However, you have cunningly omitted to give the current market value of these so-called "monstrosities"...:D
 

miami

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Very good. However, you have cunningly omitted to give the current market value of these so-called "monstrosities"...:D

While I'm sure that some rich people will be annoyed I fail to see how that is the concern of anyone else. When Comrade Corbyn gets in in 2020 I'm sure we'll have something sorted out.

That said the people of Hale do seem to get up in arms about planning rules -- they protested a plan to build a "wall" around the town last year.
 

Rail Bus

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Xenophon PCDGS

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While I'm sure that some rich people will be annoyed I fail to see how that is the concern of anyone else. When Comrade Corbyn gets in in 2020 I'm sure we'll have something sorted out.

That said the people of Hale do seem to get up in arms about planning rules -- they protested a plan to build a "wall" around the town last year.

The fact that your posting makes mention of "rich people" betrays your own personally-held sentiments, yet it was you who took it upon yourself to describe some of the properties in the Carwood area of my posting as being "monstrosities" The forum members who have known of me since I joined this website early in 2011 will be aware of my own residential location in the best part of the Cheshire Golden Triangle which, to be perfectly frank with you, based upon the annual valuation we have in order that the shell insurance policy is reflective of current market values should a rebuilding be required after a disaster has occurred, is far in excess of the property values in the Carwood area of Hale Barns.

I am highly amused about your comments concerning Jeremy Corbyn "getting in in 2020" as he seems to be a leader of the Labour Party who does not foster much in the way of solid backing from the members of his own Shadow Cabinet as a result of the unreal expectation aspirations that he chooses to foster. It was only yesterday that his deputy came out to make that particular point clear. Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader by what is described as a wide church of the party, but it is the Labour Members of Parliament who were elected to represent their constituencies, not a gathering of left-wing idealists in those constituencies who now find themselves in the position of reaping what they have sown. I just wonder where the location will be where he will be "getting in" in 2020, having just watched a dvd of "Waiting for God" starring Stephanie Cole and Graham Crowden as residents in a certain establishment. Perhaps you had something similar in mind for Jeremy Corbyn, though giving my age of 70 away, I can remember a song called "My name is Jack", recorded by Manfred Mann, that made reference to "The Greta Garbo Home for wayward boys and girls" which on current political utterances, seems just the place that he should "get in".

Finally, in response to the "wall" that you made reference of in Hale in your posting, you should have made it clear in your posting what this signifies in theological terminology and the said plan to create an eruv in the Hale areas, for those who do confess to have some knowledge of such matters, is reflective of the strong Jewish presence in the environs of the Altrincham area as a whole, with synagogues in Hale, Bowdon and Altrincham.

All that said, I am and always will be, a Christian.
 

The Ham

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Well this is about Middlewich, and to traffic from Northwich, Knutsford and Altrincham to Crewe.

It's not to reduce traffic on the A556 (which won't be impacted by the Middlewich rail line according to the finance case) or in places from Altrincham north. From a glance at the finance case of those 340 people who will use the staiton, about 100 people go to crewe, about 100 to manchester, and 100 to Altrincham/Stockport, and then presumably return later. Another 40 will go from Crewe to Northwich, Knutsford and Altrincham, and 40 from N/K/A to Crewe. I suspect there will be very few interchanging at Northwich.

Is it to create more journeys that wouldn't otherwise be worthwhile (i.e. someone who is unable or unwilling to drive to their destination would use the train if it existed, but wouldn't use the bus)?

Is it to provide resilience in the transport network (like with the far north line)

Is it to reduce the cost to the economy (in time and money) of existing journeys

Is it to reduce the cost to the individual (in time and money) of existing journeys

Or is it to move existing journeys, perhaps reduce the traffic at railheads where people currently drive and park?

I'm impressed that a new station at Middlewich will only cost £370k, given a temporary station at Workington north cost £210k (£240k in todays money). I guess that 24/7 working really jacked up the price! A new car park at Leighton Buzzard station cost £1,000,000, so to reopen a line, open a new station and upgrade another station for £970k is amazing value for money.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in favour of it, the total cost is about 7 hours of a token bombing of Syria, and the returns look far better than the Borders line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


So how are those 4, 8 and 12 coach trains in the north west going? And the 6tph on the chester line?

The demand for road transport is inevitably far higher than that of rail because cars take people from where they are to where they want to be, where trains take them from somewhere else to somewhere else. Roads only create the demand for a journey in that they enable journeys that wouldn't normally be taken as the cost (in time/stress)/benefit ratio is lower.



But people will only use the road or the rail if it goes where they want to go. Typically people don't "go out for a drive", they have a journey to make. A new road will mean taking that journey from somewhere else (a different road, a bus, a train), or allowing a journey to be made that would be otherwise not made (thus costing the economy if we accept that journeys lead to economic activity, and that that's a good thing).

Given that nowhere near 1500 people per hour use the chester-altrincham line, this line is more like 1500 people per day (in each direction - about 1 million journeys per year), this would be 2 cars per minute on a road, even if every person had their own car.

A station at middlewich will serve 680 people per day, or about 42 people per hour, or about 1 car every 4 minutes in each direction. It won't make any difference to traffic levels anywhere.

The point I was making was a more general one rather than to an individual line and/or station. Clearly lightly used stations aren't going to make much of a diffence locally, however a lot of lightly used stations can make a big difference if all the people room them are heading to a few locations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
1500 people a day (each way) would generally be 150 people in each peak hour as traffic isn't spread evenly over the day. Which although isn't a lot locally can make a diffence to other roads which serve many places.

My local station has 0.75 million passengers and along with two other stations (total 3 million passenger journeys) can fill 12 coach trains in the peaks.
 

pemma

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While I'm sure that some rich people will be annoyed I fail to see how that is the concern of anyone else. When Comrade Corbyn gets in in 2020 I'm sure we'll have something sorted out.

I am highly amused about your comments concerning Jeremy Corbyn "getting in in 2020" as he seems to be a leader of the Labour Party who does not foster much in the way of solid backing from the members of his own Shadow Cabinet as a result of the unreal expectation aspirations that he chooses to foster. It was only yesterday that his deputy came out to make that particular point clear. Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader by what is described as a wide church of the party, but it is the Labour Members of Parliament who were elected to represent their constituencies, not a gathering of left-wing idealists in those constituencies who now find themselves in the position of reaping what they have sown. I just wonder where the location will be where he will be "getting in" in 2020, having just watched a dvd of "Waiting for God" starring Stephanie Cole and Graham Crowden as residents in a certain establishment. Perhaps you had something similar in mind for Jeremy Corbyn, though giving my age of 70 away, I can remember a song called "My name is Jack", recorded by Manfred Mann, that made reference to "The Greta Garbo Home for wayward boys and girls" which on current political utterances, seems just the place that he should "get in".

Unless Corbyn has said something about the Middlewich branch line I'm not sure what relevance Corbyn posts have to this thread.
 

miami

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Ooh so easy to wind some people up, especially those that shun British values like modesty :)

I take the point about multiple small stations combining, and the way railways, however the mid cheahire line

With a large network of frequent modern trains with good 3G or free wifi coverage on every train you might wives in capturing general traffic, otherwise you're only going to get the long distance flows and people with no alternative and the commuting into cities, at least in bulk. Middlewich specifically will deliver a maximum of 300 commutes a day, many going south to Crewe. That's not going to impact on the A556 traffic.

The entire Chester northwich knutsford line doesn't really impact much on the m56 either, certainly no more than paving the line and building a single carriageway road that goes in peak direction, so arguing for increased service based on reduction in road traffic seems a distraction.

The financial case made for middlewich stands on its own, and the capital is peanuts - perhaps Cheshire could issue some 20 year bonds? It makes me wonder if there are other issues like
1) the finances aren't realistic
2) the impact on freight would be too high
3) there are planning concerns - an increase from one or two trains a day to 20 trains a day would be a big impact on houses near to the line.
 

Henbury Loop

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3) there are planning concerns - an increase from one or two trains a day to 20 trains a day would be a big impact on houses near to the line.

Network Rail's permitted development rights which they inherited grant them permission to do this (as well as many things!)

A good example of this is the former Portishead branch line which sat disused for decades - then Royal Portbury Dock required a rail head so the line was re-laid where necessary and put back into use which to the dismay of line side residents who were aware what they lived next to when they purchased their properties but wrongly assumed they would be consulted if the line was to be brought back into use.
 

6Gman

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Ooh so easy to wind some people up, especially those that shun British values like modesty :)

I take the point about multiple small stations combining, and the way railways, however the mid cheahire line

With a large network of frequent modern trains with good 3G or free wifi coverage on every train you might wives in capturing general traffic, otherwise you're only going to get the long distance flows and people with no alternative and the commuting into cities, at least in bulk. Middlewich specifically will deliver a maximum of 300 commutes a day, many going south to Crewe. That's not going to impact on the A556 traffic.

The entire Chester northwich knutsford line doesn't really impact much on the m56 either, certainly no more than paving the line and building a single carriageway road that goes in peak direction, so arguing for increased service based on reduction in road traffic seems a distraction.

The financial case made for middlewich stands on its own, and the capital is peanuts - perhaps Cheshire could issue some 20 year bonds? It makes me wonder if there are other issues like
1) the finances aren't realistic
2) the impact on freight would be too high
3) there are planning concerns - an increase from one or two trains a day to 20 trains a day would be a big impact on houses near to the line.

There may also be a case that the extra unit(s) a Northwich - Crewe service would use could be better used elsewhere ......

But I think your 1) may be the most important. Having travelled the line and examined it close-up the costs quoted for bringing it up to scratch seem ... modest.
 

miami

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There may also be a case that the extra unit(s) a Northwich - Crewe service would use could be better used elsewhere.

I don't understand this argument, be it for re-opening routes or for lengthening trains. If you need more trains, wh can't you just buy them? Sure it's not just like walking down to the local Honda dealer and driving off with a new civic, but why is there such a problem getting trains?
 

Stuwhu

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The fact that your posting makes mention of "rich people" betrays your own personally-held sentiments, yet it was you who took it upon yourself to describe some of the properties in the Carwood area of my posting as being "monstrosities" The forum members who have known of me since I joined this website early in 2011 will be aware of my own residential location in the best part of the Cheshire Golden Triangle which, to be perfectly frank with you, based upon the annual valuation we have in order that the shell insurance policy is reflective of current market values should a rebuilding be required after a disaster has occurred, is far in excess of the property values in the Carwood area of Hale Barns.

An exclusive video of the Sidorczuks out for a drink with another couple

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Kum8OUTuk
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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An exclusive video of the Sidorczuks out for a drink with another couple

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Kum8OUTuk

A good parody which so well portrays how the lower orders appear to view such matters, but in real life, we just quietly let our wealth creation take its own inexorable way of growing at a nice pace.

We have no need to state such matters normally, save in the few instances upon an internet website to refudiate certain statements.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
:lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNa-KLhUfU4

One of the monstrosities on Carwood, although at a bargain price of £3.3 million I'd rather go for this, but I'm more of a traditional Brit.

I can see that in the first image, much natural light would be able to be taken advantage of in such a dwelling, but it appears somewhat to hark back to an earlier time of architectural style.

Heavens above, we at last concur on the architectural style of the second property....:D
 

6Gman

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I don't understand this argument, be it for re-opening routes or for lengthening trains. If you need more trains, wh can't you just buy them? Sure it's not just like walking down to the local Honda dealer and driving off with a new civic, but why is there such a problem getting trains?

Others could, no doubt, provide a fuller list, but ...

1. Long lead times.
2. Legislation may mean that compatibility with existing trains is now a problem.
3. For DMUs environmental legislation raises further problems.
4. Since there is an extensive programme of electrification planned there will be a cascade of DMUs - which means new units may have low residual values.
5. Who pays?
 

CdBrux

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I don't understand this argument, be it for re-opening routes or for lengthening trains. If you need more trains, wh can't you just buy them? Sure it's not just like walking down to the local Honda dealer and driving off with a new civic, but why is there such a problem getting trains?


Then you need to add that to the budget, I doubt it includes it from the figures mentioned so far.
 

miami

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Then you need to add that to the budget, I doubt it includes it from the figures mentioned so far.

Well if they're relying on free trains it wouldn't be a very good finance case!

The costs of rolling stock are divided into three: (a) the leasing of the capital value (about
£50,000 p.a. for a 2-car 142), (b) an allowance for periodic heavy maintenance (undertaken
by the vehicle owner) (about £80,000 p.a. for a 2-car 142), and (c) light maintenance. The
first two of these are paid to the Rolling Stock leasing companies (ROSCOs), whilst light
maintenance is undertaken by the relevant train operator.

Is in the finance case, but reading the section on availability it does seem to rely on availability of specific second-hand trains, which isn't exactly a good foundation for a reliable business case. If I suggested a project (and I've just completed one of a similar budget) relying on parts from ebay I suspect it would be laughed out at the first hurdle. I guess the railway is different.

Perhaps the solution would be a local-hauled train with mk3 carriages, there should be an abundance of these coming from FGW soon :D
 

Holly

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... Perhaps the solution would be a local-hauled train with mk3 carriages, there should be an abundance of these coming from FGW soon :D
Loco hauled Mk.3 carriages would be popular with the passengers. No doubt about that.
 

LeylandLen

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Its all very good everyone putting forward there point of view , A556 v rail and reopening lines . Who knows what will happen when HS2 is built ? Surely its up to us to think and plan ahead for future generations. Be positive and plan for Middlewich line being used for passenger traffic some time in the future by not building on land that could be of use to future rail use.
 

miami

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http://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk..._planned_for_Birchwood_Train_Station/?ref=rss
TRAVELLING from Birchwood station is set to get easier thanks to a £2million investment providing step free access to platforms for the first time.

Network Rail will build a new bridge with lifts to all platforms at the station with work set to start later this spring.

The scheme is funded by a £1.193m grant from the Department for Transport's Access for All programme and by Warrington Borough Council.

So £2m to build a new bridge.

http://www.mcrua.org.uk/uploads/reo...gers---final-report--july-2009_1248946031.pdf -- table on page 34, forgive me for not copying and pasting:
Middlewich station: £370k
Northwich station: £120k
Track work: £50k
Total: £970k

Can anyone explain such a discrepency?
 

theshillito

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Can anyone explain such a discrepency?

Lifts are expensive. Northwich already has a bridge covering all platforms. The only work that needs doing at Northwich is adjusting the platform to cater for third line and removing the fence. However, if Northwich was to become more of a connection-making hub, a lift would definitely be needed, which would, as you are implying, make the figure higher than in the report, which I don't think included a lift IIRC.
 

MarkRedon

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See http://www.northwichguardian.co.uk/news/14149668.Northwich_backs_rail_link_campaign/:

The Northwich Guardian newspaper reports that the Mid-Cheshire Rail Link Campaign's objectives were outlined to members of the Northwich Town Council by Cllr Andrew Cooper. Among the factors which he highlighted in favour of the campaign were the number of students travelling to 6th form colleges and a high school in the town; double parking and traffic queues on the bypass.

The council agreed unanimously that it would support the campaign and nominated Cllr Cooper as its representative on the campaign group.
Every little helps...
 

muddythefish

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The fact that your posting makes mention of "rich people" betrays your own personally-held sentiments, yet it was you who took it upon yourself to describe some of the properties in the Carwood area of my posting as being "monstrosities" The forum members who have known of me since I joined this website early in 2011 will be aware of my own residential location in the best part of the Cheshire Golden Triangle which, to be perfectly frank with you, based upon the annual valuation we have in order that the shell insurance policy is reflective of current market values should a rebuilding be required after a disaster has occurred, is far in excess of the property values in the Carwood area of Hale Barns.

I am highly amused about your comments concerning Jeremy Corbyn "getting in in 2020" as he seems to be a leader of the Labour Party who does not foster much in the way of solid backing from the members of his own Shadow Cabinet as a result of the unreal expectation aspirations that he chooses to foster. It was only yesterday that his deputy came out to make that particular point clear. Jeremy Corbyn was elected leader by what is described as a wide church of the party, but it is the Labour Members of Parliament who were elected to represent their constituencies, not a gathering of left-wing idealists in those constituencies who now find themselves in the position of reaping what they have sown. I just wonder where the location will be where he will be "getting in" in 2020, having just watched a dvd of "Waiting for God" starring Stephanie Cole and Graham Crowden as residents in a certain establishment. Perhaps you had something similar in mind for Jeremy Corbyn, though giving my age of 70 away, I can remember a song called "My name is Jack", recorded by Manfred Mann, that made reference to "The Greta Garbo Home for wayward boys and girls" which on current political utterances, seems just the place that he should "get in".

Finally, in response to the "wall" that you made reference of in Hale in your posting, you should have made it clear in your posting what this signifies in theological terminology and the said plan to create an eruv in the Hale areas, for those who do confess to have some knowledge of such matters, is reflective of the strong Jewish presence in the environs of the Altrincham area as a whole, with synagogues in Hale, Bowdon and Altrincham.

All that said, I am and always will be, a Christian.

Are you Victorian Dad out of Viz magazine ? Your writing style is about 100 years out of date.
 
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