Can 1st Class be made Standard by train staff when there is overcrowding?

[Railcar]

This morning (Sat 11th September), GWR did not have enough train crews and cancelled a Penzance to Paddington train. This train was due at Newton Abbot (where I was waiting) at 09.54. The next train to Paddington was the 10.54. By Newton Abbot this 10-coach train was running late due to extra stops (to fill in for the missing 09.54). It already had people standing in the vestibules. We all squeezed on at Newton Abbot. More crushed in at Exeter St Davids and were standing in the aisles. The reservations in Standard had all been turned off.

There were pathetic announcements by the Train Managers (there seemed to be two, one male and one female) about leaving the aisles clear so that the trolley could get through but that was plainly impossible. Many people stood for the whole long journey to Paddington (where the train arrived 31 minutes late).

There were four 1st Class coaches and six Standard. As the train drew in at Newton Abbot it was plain that there were plenty of empty seats in 1st Class.

In view of the severe overcrowding (caused by a GWR decision), would the Train Managers have the authority to designate 1st Class as Standard on their own? Or get authority from whoever in GWR decides to cancel trains? Or is it 'not allowed' under any circumstances?

There was no attempt by the Train Managers to make their way through the train.

 

[thedbdiboy]

They have the authority to do so but it is not an automatic right because it undermines the benefit of paying for 1st class. I don't know what criteria may be used by GWR in this situation.

 

[30907]

There were four 1st Class coaches and six Standard. As the train drew in at Newton Abbot it was plain that there were plenty of empty seats in 1st Class.

Were they unreserved all the way to Reading/Paddington though? I would expect 1st class loadings to increase towards London, and this may have been a factor.

In view of the severe overcrowding (caused by a GWR decision)

Perhaps not the best phrase (Covid or whatever the cause of staff absence was is hardly their decision) - but certainly their responsibility to mitigate.

 

[Halish Railway]

I’ve been on a 5-car Azuma when all of the seats were taken in standard class, leaving about 20 standing. In this case the train manager made an announcement that these standees could sit in first class.

 

[Tallguy]

Some years ago I was in first class from Lancaster to Manchester and the first class was de-categorised due to overcrowding on the very short formed train. Got so,e of my money back but still had the free brekkie.

 

[Essexman]

GWR declassified First Class on the very crowded train I travelled to Torquay on (via Bristol) last Sunday.
Only those of us with First Class tickets got the free refreshments.
Every seat was taken and when someone got on at Swindon with a First Class ticket the Train Manager asked for a volunteer with a Standard ticket to give up their seat. Someone did but she said otherwise she would have to tell someone they'd have to move. Not sure how she'd make the pick.

 

[Bevan Price]

Having 4 out of 10 coaches allocated to 1st class seems excessive, considering the typical proportions of passengers using standard class.

 

[Darandio]

Having 4 out of 10 coaches allocated to 1st class seems excessive, considering the typical proportions of passengers using standard class.

Presumably this is 2x5 car. In which case there aren't four full coaches of 1st class.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Avanti, I've noticed tend to do this a bit more frequently than others. However it's normally Coach G on the Pendolino that gets declassified. I think only in serious overcrowding situations they declassify the lot.

 

[Bluejays]

Find it hard to take the original message seriously. Firstly its not 4 first and 6 standard. 2 of the 'first class carriages' are barely half a carriage as they share with the kitchen, the other 2 are composite carriages of half first/half standard , so the split was actually 7/2.
I also find it hard to believe that first class remained pretty empty, with 2 trains worth of people I'd imagine it was pretty full.

The service on weekends from GWR is not up to scratch at the moment, it's bordering on shameful. But I'm not sure what hyperbolic nonsense such as this add to the conversation.

 

[bramling]

Find it hard to take the original message seriously. Firstly its not 4 first and 6 standard. 2 of the 'first class carriages' are barely half a carriage as they share with the kitchen, the other 2 are composite carriages of half first/half standard , so the split was actually 7/2.
I also find it hard to believe that first class remained pretty empty, with 2 trains worth of people I'd imagine it was pretty full.

The service on weekends from GWR is not up to scratch at the moment, it's bordering on shameful. But I'm not sure what hyperbolic nonsense such as this add to the conversation.

I don't think it's hyperbolic to ask the question. The fact that a 2xIEP train has two kitchens isn't an ideal situation for a start, though the subject of the Cornwall 5-cars has been discussed frequently on here. But it isn't unreasonable to ask the question whether declassifying could be an option if a complete train's worth of capacity has been cancelled.

 

[RailWonderer]

Last time that happened to me was on one of the last VT services before Avanti took over. I had an 11 car Pendolino at Rugby to head back to Euston and the service had come from Blackpool North and was very delayed (though the front most standard coach was not even busy) when the TM announced first was declassified.

 

[zwk500]

I don't think it's hyperbolic to ask the question. The fact that a 2xIEP train has two kitchens isn't an ideal situation for a start, though the subject of the Cornwall 5-cars has been discussed frequently on here. But it isn't unreasonable to ask the question whether declassifying could be an option if a complete train's worth of capacity has been cancelled.

If it was 2 5-car units, then there's the added issue that people can't pass along the full length of the train and so there could be much worse overcrowding in one standard class section than the other.

 

[Chiltern006]

Was on a 7 car Meridian in May, full and standing, no room at all, crammed in like sardines from Nottingham to London (on a sunday). should the train manager have declassified 2 of the 3 first class carriages, especially with the situation with covid back then?

 

[Dr Hoo]

I was on a GWR Class 80x service the other day that was 5 v 10 from Exeter to Paddington and the Train Manager did de-classify as far as Taunton (where many pax alighted and there was no longer an issue). She clearly knew her service and dealt with it very well in the circumstances of the day.

 

[Bluejays]

I don't think it's hyperbolic to ask the question. The fact that a 2xIEP train has two kitchens isn't an ideal situation for a start, though the subject of the Cornwall 5-cars has been discussed frequently on here. But it isn't unreasonable to ask the question whether declassifying could be an option if a complete train's worth of capacity has been cancelled.

Totally agree re the kitchens not being ideal. Just disagree with the picture the op seemed to want to paint, that of acres of first class seats sitting free while standard was full and standing. First class is generally pretty cosy on a weekend on those services, especially when the train before has been cancelled.

Just struck me as a pretty ham-fisted attempt to try and blame the crowded conditions on the train manager, when there was probably not much they could do about it.

 

[Railcar]

Totally agree re the kitchens not being ideal. Just disagree with the picture the op seemed to want to paint, that of acres of first class seats sitting free while standard was full and standing. First class is generally pretty cosy on a weekend on those services, especially when the train before has been cancelled.

Just struck me as a pretty ham-fisted attempt to try and blame the crowded conditions on the train manager, when there was probably not much they could do about it.

As far as space in 1st is concerned, I can only report what I saw on that particular train at one point in the journey. For the rest of the time I was jammed in a seat with a large suitcase between my knees and the seat in front (the train's suitcase rack was of course full)

As far as the Train Managers are concerned, my question was whether they (or anyone in the chain of command) had authority to improve the crowded conditions. From some of the answers above, it seems that they had, but they chose not to.

It is also worth mentioning that this train had collected a lot of holidaymakers on its journey through Cornwall and west Devon. At Newton Abbot there were many more, because it is the link to the line down to Torquay and Paignton. Holidaymakers all have luggage, which adds to the congestion. This was a long, long journey of many hours that overran by a further 30 uncomfortable minutes. If GWR want to encourage holidays by train they will have to do much, much better. I heard no mention of Delay Repay, yet this was a case where large numbers of people should be claiming.

 

[185143]

I was on a short formed and 25 late Paignton service out of Paddington earlier. 5 vice 9.

No reservations and we were full+standing. Reading was pick up only, but the TM suggested anyone for Taunton or Exeter who was standing may wish to alight and catch the Penzance train. I bailed out, First Class was pretty much full as well so declassifying it would have been pointless.

 

[ExRes]

Was on a 7 car Meridian in May, full and standing, no room at all, crammed in like sardines from Nottingham to London (on a sunday). should the train manager have declassified 2 of the 3 first class carriages, especially with the situation with covid back then?

They used to do it 10/15 years ago when I worked there so I don't know why they wouldn't now, assuming EMT and EMR treat passengers the same way of course

 

[Ashley Hill]

I'll de-classify as necessary but try and keep one coach (two on a ten car) exclusively first class as long as I can.

There was no attempt by the Train Managers to make their way through the train

If its a 10 the guard will generally be in the rear set. And sometimes the guard cannot get through even on a 5 or 9 car.

There were pathetic announcements by the Train Managers (there seemed to be two, one male and one female) about leaving the aisles clear so that the trolley could get through but that was plainly imposs

Guards seldom make catering announcements,so on a 10 car different announcements could come from buffet staff in separate parts of the train.

 

[DorkingMain]

This morning (Sat 11th September), GWR did not have enough train crews and cancelled a Penzance to Paddington train. This train was due at Newton Abbot (where I was waiting) at 09.54. The next train to Paddington was the 10.54. By Newton Abbot this 10-coach train was running late due to extra stops (to fill in for the missing 09.54). It already had people standing in the vestibules. We all squeezed on at Newton Abbot. More crushed in at Exeter St Davids and were standing in the aisles. The reservations in Standard had all been turned off.

There were pathetic announcements by the Train Managers (there seemed to be two, one male and one female) about leaving the aisles clear so that the trolley could get through but that was plainly impossible. Many people stood for the whole long journey to Paddington (where the train arrived 31 minutes late).

There were four 1st Class coaches and six Standard. As the train drew in at Newton Abbot it was plain that there were plenty of empty seats in 1st Class.

In view of the severe overcrowding (caused by a GWR decision), would the Train Managers have the authority to designate 1st Class as Standard on their own? Or get authority from whoever in GWR decides to cancel trains? Or is it 'not allowed' under any circumstances?

There was no attempt by the Train Managers to make their way through the train.

So you're complaining it was impossible to make space for a trolley to get through, yet also complaining the guard didn't come through the train?

To answer your question - it's a discretion issue. First class passengers have paid a great deal extra to be in a quiet, more comfortable part of the train - encouraging in hordes of standard class passengers is not a good look on the train company either, and will likely result in a lot of first class passengers dropping requests for refunds on the train company. Whether you agree with that being the setup, that's a matter for the train company to decide more than individual TMs. First class is often not "empty" like many people think it is, but naturally it's going to be slightly more generously spaced for the reasons discussed above.

 

[Aictos]

It is down to the discretion of the controller responsible for the running of that service for example every Sunday a few years ago there was a 4 car Class 365 that only called Peterborough, Huntingdon, St Neots and Biggleswade then London Kings Cross and every Sunday without fail it would be full and standing from Huntingdon as I always had to ask the company to not advertise 1st Class on any part of the journey, thankfully now 4 car operation is a thing of the past on the Peterborough route.

 

[Mag_seven]

Just a reminder to posters that the subject of this thread is the declassification of 1st class when there is overcrowding. This is not a discussion about the value of 1st class in general which we have debated to death in many other threads before.

thanks.

 

[LRV3004]

I suppose it’s all down to discretion, individual TOC policy/policies etc. When I was an on board cleaner for Virgin Trains’ contractors many years ago, we had an overcrowding situation on the 1055 Euston to Manchester which was the first ‘off peak’ train out of London. It was always busy anyway but on this particular day we were a standard class coach short in the rake.
We put as many of the standard class passengers as possible in first class. Then we took some of the reservation labels out of the seats and marked them on the back with an “X”. We put those in the first class seats occupied by standard class passengers so that the catering crew knew how to differentiate between first class passengers and the standard class passengers who had been re-located there.

 

[Neptune]

This morning (Sat 11th September), GWR did not have enough train crews and cancelled a Penzance to Paddington train. This train was due at Newton Abbot (where I was waiting) at 09.54. The next train to Paddington was the 10.54. By Newton Abbot this 10-coach train was running late due to extra stops (to fill in for the missing 09.54). It already had people standing in the vestibules. We all squeezed on at Newton Abbot. More crushed in at Exeter St Davids and were standing in the aisles. The reservations in Standard had all been turned off.

Sadly people including train staff who’ve been working throughout the pandemic are still having to shield. Like everywhere there a still shortages in staff numbers.

There were pathetic announcements by the Train Managers (there seemed to be two, one male and one female) about leaving the aisles clear so that the trolley could get through but that was plainly impossible. Many people stood for the whole long journey to Paddington (where the train arrived 31 minutes late).

Keep the bold part in mind for the last point I make.

There were four 1st Class coaches and six Standard. As the train drew in at Newton Abbot it was plain that there were plenty of empty seats in 1st Class.

Debunked by others. There’s about 2 coaches worth of FC and 7 of standard. Going overboard hoping nobody knows the makeup of a 2x5 car 80x unit makes the point less worthy.

In view of the severe overcrowding (caused by a GWR decision), would the Train Managers have the authority to designate 1st Class as Standard on their own? Or get authority from whoever in GWR decides to cancel trains? Or is it 'not allowed' under any circumstances?

Was it a GWR decision? If there’s no staff available a service must be cancelled. Nobody forced all those people into the following service.

You said later that you had a seat so I’m assuming this whole thing has nothing to do with you wanting a free FC upgrade.

There was no attempt by the Train Managers to make their way through the train.

You stated above that the train was impossible to pass through (the bit i highlighted in bold) yet complain that the TM didn’t (you state ‘no attempt’ but unless you were watching them throughout the entire journey do you actually know that they made ‘no attempt’).

So which was it. ‘Impossible’ to pass through or was it possible.

The whole thing just sounds to me like you had a journey that was a bit crappy (at least you had a seat unlike others, I hope there weren’t people less able than you stood up) and you want to lash out with the staff being the target.

 

[Master29]

Was on a 7 car Meridian in May, full and standing, no room at all, crammed in like sardines from Nottingham to London (on a sunday). should the train manager have declassified 2 of the 3 first class carriages, especially with the situation with covid back then?

I think the 7 car 222's are the highest ratio of first/standard in this country anyway. 106/236.

 

[gallafent]

Sadly people including train staff who’ve been working throughout the pandemic are still having to shield. Like everywhere there a still shortages in staff numbers.

I've forked off some wider thoughts regarding the problem of overcrowding due to staff shortages with the COVID-19 excuse into a new thread here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/overcrowding-staff-shortages-shielding-vaccinations-returning-to-the-railway-….222259/post-5309768

 

[chris_in_salop]

I'm glad that busy rail staff have taken the time to defend the railway's virtue in the face of the OP's disgracefully biased account.

What are all these holidaymakers doing cluttering up the trains anyway? There's a perfectly good motorway into Devon they should be using instead.

 

[TPO]

Sadly people including train staff who’ve been working throughout the pandemic are still having to shield. Like everywhere there a still shortages in staff numbers.

Keep the bold part in mind for the last point I make.

Debunked by others. There’s about 2 coaches worth of FC and 7 of standard. Going overboard hoping nobody knows the makeup of a 2x5 car 80x unit makes the point less worthy.

Was it a GWR decision? If there’s no staff available a service must be cancelled. Nobody forced all those people into the following service.

You said later that you had a seat so I’m assuming this whole thing has nothing to do with you wanting a free FC upgrade.

You stated above that the train was impossible to pass through (the bit i highlighted in bold) yet complain that the TM didn’t (you state ‘no attempt’ but unless you were watching them throughout the entire journey do you actually know that they made ‘no attempt’).

So which was it. ‘Impossible’ to pass through or was it possible.

The whole thing just sounds to me like you had a journey that was a bit crappy (at least you had a seat unlike others, I hope there weren’t people less able than you stood up) and you want to lash out with the staff being the target.

Worse than a "bit" crappy I would say, bearing in mind that non-TOC employees actually pay for the train (twice as they pay tax to subsidise as well as buying a ticket).

If in the longer-term rail wants to compete with roads it must do better on passenger experience. At least if I am delayed in my van I am sitting comfortably.

Saying that no one forced people onto an overcrowded train misses the point by a country mile.

The COVID excuse is wearing thin now too.

TPO

 

[30907]

The COVID excuse is wearing thin now too.

Really? Covid cases are running at 10x their May level, have been since the beginning of July, and are particularly numerous in the SW.