Can Brighton->London Victoria season ticket be used for travel to London Bridge or Waterloo?

[Prizym]

Hello, I typically buy a Brighton->Victoria season ticket (usually monthlies).

95% of the time I travel this direct route, but occasionally it would be convenient to travel to/from London Bridge or Waterloo. Last weekend I needed to travel to LB and paid extra for a East Croydon<>LB ticket, but now I think I probably didn't need to do that?

Since then, doing research by reading posts here and looking at the routing guides, I now know that both these stations are part of LB and VB maps, and it seems I'd be fine breaking/starting my journey at these stations given I have a season ticket? But what's unclear how doubling-back plays a role?

With a Brighton<>Victoria season ticket, would I have a problem exiting at Waterloo (eg, via Clapham Junction) or LB (eg, via East Croydon) when travelling northbound, or starting journey from same travelling southbound? I am fine seeking out at attendant if the barriers themselves won't let me in/out...

Thanks!

Adding a bit more, on an old thread (from 2013) it was mentioned that such a ticket to Victoria (from Hassocks) could be valid as follows, but it's unclear it's that still the case?

Your ticket is valid on pretty much all stations inside the sector bounded by

Waterloo/Victoria - Clapham Junction - Wimbledon -Epsom in the west
Epsom - Sutton - West Croydon in the south
London Bridge - New Cross Gate - East Croydon in the east
plus London Bridge - Waterloo East, London Bridge - Blackfriars in the north

and then on the mainline from East Croydon south to Hassocks.

 

[JonathanH]

The previous thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ictoria-season-ticket-permitted-routes.77731/ does appear to indicate availability via London Bridge to London Victoria but are there any new negative easements since then?

It would be interesting to know whether the ticket barriers at the other London Terminals allowed by map LB accept or reject the ticket, as it may not be a hassle free undertaking to use the other stations if they don't.

 

[jfollows]

See maps LB and VB at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps (you already have done).
The former is a bit strange in a way but shows routes to London Bridge if you think about it.
If your ticket is “any permitted” with no operator restrictions then these maps show your valid routes.

Assuming your ticket is to “London Terminals”, see https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/travel-information/travelling-in-london/ it will be valid to Waterloo via either Clapham Junction or London Bridge.

You can also break your journey at any intermediate station with a season ticket.

What do you mean by ”doubling back”? Your season ticket is valid for unlimited travel on valid routes.

 

[Prizym]

See maps LB and VB at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps (you already have done).
The former is a bit strange in a way but shows routes to London Bridge if you think about it.
If your ticket is “any permitted” with no operator restrictions then these maps show your valid routes

Thanks. I do find the interpreting the maps a bid challenging for a layman, since neither Victoria/LB/Waterloo are explicitly noted in the maps, but I interpret as being that I can validly travel to LB via East Croydon or Clapham Junction. It's Waterloo that confuses me, since I don't know if there's a route between Waterloo to LB that doesn't involve doubling-back, but the routing guide seems to think I could do it.

My season ticket does not have any operator restrictions. I have travelled to/from Victoria via GX/Southern/Thameslink in the past with no issues.

 

[jfollows]

I still don’t know what you mean by “doubling back”, but Waterloo East - London Bridge - Brighton is fine. As is Waterloo - Clapham - Brighton. You may be over-thinking all this!

 

[Prizym]

It's worth noting that my season ticket is explicitly to Victoria, and not "London Terminals".

I know I'd need "London Terminals" to travel north of LB (Blackfriars?), but am not sure of Waterloo or LB explicitly.

 

[jfollows]

Hence my earlier question.
If your ticket is to London Victoria then it’s not valid to other terminals. https://www.brfares.com/!expert?orig=BTN&dest=VIC&period=20240928
Pay the extra for London Terminals if you want the flexibility it offers.

 

[maniacmartin]

This is a bit of an undefined area in the rules, but I believe it is allowed by a real gnarly technicality.

I am assuming its this ticket which is slightly cheaper than the ticket to London Terminals and is routed Any Permitted, lacking a maltese cross
It's certainly not intended to be valid to Waterloo and London Bridge.

Looking at the Routeing Guide, Section B (Pink Pages) shows us that Brighton is a Routeing Point and Victoria is a member of London Group. Section C (Yellow Pages) page 203 shows the map combinations LB or, seperately, VB.

The way the maps are presented is a bit confusing because all stations in a Routeing Group are represented by a single green square. The implied but unwritten rule is that once you reach a station in the destination ticket group, you can then continue to other stations in the same group, but cannot pass through any stations that are not in the group. This is the reason why London Terminals tickets are not valid via Farringdon or the core Elizabeth Line section. However, the concept of an ticket destination group (London Terminals etc) is different from a Routeing Point group.

Map VB shows a route via Herne Hill and Brixton then on to London Group not via any other Routeing Points only. I can't see any loopholes here.

Map LB shows routes via Clapham Junction, Elephant & Castle or New Cross Gate. So let's say you go via New Cross Gate to London Bridge. From there you can go via Herne Hill and Peckham Rye, then on to Streatham Group, Clapham Junction and into Victoria. Although you will have passed through the London Routeing Group twice in this journey, it isn't a double back as that is defined as passing through the same station twice. You also will not have continued to a station not in the destination station group after having passed through one in the same group, as this ticket is to London Victoria specifically, not London Terminals, so London Bridge is not in the destination station group.

Note that if travelling to Waterloo you can make two journeys starting/stopping short if you don't want to go via London Bridge - one from Brighton to Clapham Junction on map VB and then another doing the reverse route of what I described above on map LB.

It's quite possible that a negative easement will be added soon to prevent this, assuming one doesn't already exist. I had a quick look but couldn't find anything, although I'm curious as to what 700549 is all about. Of course the more obvious way for GTR to fix this is to change the routeing from Any Permitted to Via Clapham Junction which would shut the loophole down.

Either way, you are likely to have issues at the gateline if you try to use the ticket in this way though, so I don't advise it.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I have a similar season ticket (Crawley to London Victoria, any permitted). Would I be correct in assuming I can follow the same route?

 

[Prizym]

Thanks all -- it's all very confusing. I was interpreting the routeing guide as implying I could travel to Victoria via LB, and if so then technically I could break there; likewise, it seemed possible to do the same at Waterloo via Clapham Junction.

Obviously "London Terminals" is the proper way, but also don't want to pay extra if I don't have to. I wouldn't want to do this regularly, and not if it's going to cause me problems. This would only be for the occasional time I am out with friends late, or at a show on the weekend.

 

[Kilopylae]

Thanks all -- it's all very confusing. I was interpreting the routeing guide as implying I could travel to Victoria via LB, and if so then technically I could break there

For a given definition of technically, maniacmartin's answer suggests this is the correct interpretation, if you're willing to argue the point.

 

[Prizym]

Quick update: So, I tried this yesterday evening, as I was going to see a show at the Old Vic. It worked both ways using my monthly Brighton->Victoria season pass, which is loaded into a Key smartcard, by the way.

I travelled into London Bridge, and the gates at LB accepted my smartcard pass to leave the station.

On the return, I attempted to use my smartcard at Waterloo, and also no problem at the gates. I then transferred to a Brighton-bound service at Clapham Junction.

 

[Somewhere]

What does your season ticket actually say? You can scan it with the National Rail Smartcard App, and it should tell you

 

[Prizym]

What does your season ticket actually say? You can scan it with the National Rail Smartcard App, and it should tell you

As I've said before it's Brighton to London Victoria (*not* London Terminals) month smart card pass. Screenshot from the app below

 

[MrJeeves]

Quick update: So, I tried this yesterday evening, as I was going to see a show at the Old Vic. It worked both ways using my monthly Brighton->Victoria season pass, which is loaded into a Key smartcard, by the way.

I travelled into London Bridge, and the gates at LB accepted my smartcard pass to leave the station.

On the return, I attempted to use my smartcard at Waterloo, and also no problem at the gates. I then transferred to a Brighton-bound service at Clapham Junction.

I'm genuinely impressed that worked flawlessly... Happy for you, though!

I certainly would have wanted to be a fly on the wall gateline if you had to ask staff to let you through with a paper ticket... My previous experiences at London Bridge either suggest they'll either accept anything orange, or nothing slightly out of the ordinary whatsoever.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Might not work for that much longer mind...

 

[Prizym]

I'm genuinely impressed that worked flawlessly... Happy for you, though!

I certainly would have wanted to be a fly on the wall gateline if you had to ask staff to let you through with a paper ticket... My previous experiences at London Bridge either suggest they'll either accept anything orange, or nothing slightly out of the ordinary whatsoever.

Yes, to be honest I am a bit surprised it worked, given the uncertainty here, but I figured I had little to lose to try it!

Certainly, being able to just have it work at the barriers with a smartcard is fantastic.

Might not work for that much longer mind...

If it doesn't continue to work for long, that's okay -- I rarely will need to use it, but for now it will save a few quid for the 1-in-15 days that I would like to do it