Can "conventional" trains run on the SNCF high speed lines network?

[peteb]

I'm well aware TGVs are often diverted to run on conventional SNCF lines, but can "conventional" trains such as loco hauled IC run on the high speed network? Last year I thought some Bordeaux to Marseille intercity trains were due to call at Montpellier Sud de France but can see none at the moment. The reason for this query is associated with the possible reinstatement of intercity night trains in France. Night time traffic on lignes grand vitesse appears sparse and I wondered if there spare capacity there?

 

[StephenHunter]

They'd need the TVM430 signaling system and the ability to operate on 25kV, as the conventional lines are 3kV DC.

 

[43096]

They'd need the TVM430 signaling system and the ability to operate on 25kV, as the conventional lines are 3kV DC.

TVM430 would be the barrier, not voltages, though there are some locos fitted. Conventional lines are not 3kV DC at all: the north and various other pockets are largely 25kV AC and everything else is 1.5kV DC (so no 3kV DC at all). As a result there are plenty of dual voltage locos.

 

[StephenHunter]

My mistake, I mixed up the voltage with Belgium.

 

[peteb]

Ah, so the cab based signalling system? Are there many SNCF locks fitted with that? I assume engineering train locos have it?

 

[peteb]

SNCF locos, apologies for typo

 

[biko]

Night time traffic on lignes grand vitesse appears sparse and I wondered if there spare capacity there?

To my knowledge, LGVs are closed during the night, so that explains the low intensities.

 

[MarcVD]

No, not that many. But atlantique tgvs, due to hit the scrap heap very soon, are basically identical to bb26000, so it should not be complicated to recover tvm430 equipment from them to equip a few locos with them.

 

[peteb]

I wonder why the LFV are closed at night? Simply lack of traffic or very necessary and frequent inspection and maintenance of the tracks? Are they shut every night?

 

[peteb]

LGV......I really must improve my typing

 

[biko]

LGVs are indeed closed at night for maintenance and inspection. I don't know if it's every night in France, but Dutch high speed lines are closed every night.

 

[Chris Butler]

LGV......I really must improve my typing

You can edit (your own) posts. Click 'Edit' at the bottom left of your post.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Night maintenance is the SNCF policy on LGV routes.
I believe HS1 (which also uses TVM) is the same, and would expect HS2 to follow the same pattern.
Night closure has also allowed several major upgrades to take place recently on LGV Sud Est, without disrupting traffic.

Eurotunnel locos are fitted with TVM, and so are the Class 395 EMUs.
As ETCS is rolled out across Europe (inc the UK) there should be more and more stock capable of using those lines - which was its purpose after all.
France's recent LGV extensions use ETCS rather than TVM.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Bordeaux to Marseille trains use the "Contournement" Nimes-Montpellier but I am unsure what, if anything, they need spcially equipped to be allowed to do so.

MVGV 200kmh freight trains used the LGV Sud-Est until recently - these were a great spectacle though very few videos exist as they ran in the dead of night. Hauled by modified BB22000 "nez cassé" (broken nose, on account of their cab design).

 

[popeter45]

class 92's are used in France as CC92000's and they have TVM430 for HS1/the channel tunnel so in theory could run on LGV's but the voltage change when changing to classic lines would be an issue not to mention how many paths would be needed considering they run max 140km/h

 

[popeter45]

Night maintenance is the SNCF policy on LGV routes.
I believe HS1 (which also uses TVM) is the same, and would expect HS2 to follow the same pattern.
Night closure has also allowed several major upgrades to take place recently on LGV Sud Est, without disrupting traffic.

does anybody here know the actually closure/opening times for each LGV route?

 

[AlexNL]

Some French LGVs are dual-equipped with TVM430 and ETCS. If you've got a locomotive which can handle 25 kV and has ETCS fitted, it should in theory be possible to run that over a French high speed line.

However, axle loads are a limiting factor as well. Passenger-dedicated high speed lines have a lower axle load limit, As far as I know the French LGVs have a limit of 17t per axle.

 

[TRAX]

class 92's are used in France as CC92000's and they have TVM430 for HS1/the channel tunnel so in theory could run on LGV's but the voltage change when changing to classic lines would be an issue not to mention how many paths would be needed considering they run max 140km/h

We don’t use the 92s (anymore) domestically.

It is worth mentioning that some units of the Z 21500 series (regional TER EMUs) have been modified (as Z 21700s) to be able to run on a portion of LGV in the west of France. These are the first and only TER units to be able to run on high-speed lines.
The rest of the french fleet, except a few exceptions on some locomotives, can’t run on these lines for the reasons already stated: cab signalling, axle load, and voltage (although now most EMUs and BMUs ordered are capable of running under both french voltages (1.5 kV DC and 25 kV AC) for maximum fleet flexibility).

 

[Peter Kelford]

I'm well aware TGVs are often diverted to run on conventional SNCF lines, but can "conventional" trains such as loco hauled IC run on the high speed network? Last year I thought some Bordeaux to Marseille intercity trains were due to call at Montpellier Sud de France but can see none at the moment. The reason for this query is associated with the possible reinstatement of intercity night trains in France. Night time traffic on lignes grand vitesse appears sparse and I wondered if there spare capacity there?

In short, yes if specially converted. For instance the 'BROOM' inspection units are diesel units running on the LGV SEA, ZTERs use the LGV BPL and in the past the 4400kw Nez Cassés have used the LGV Méditeranné.

3kV DC.

1.5kv

 

[Peter Kelford]

Bordeaux to Marseille trains use the "Contournement" Nimes-Montpellier but I am unsure what, if anything, they need spcially equipped to be allowed to do so.

The Contournement is an exception with no TVM, it's standard BAL there, so a 220km/h limit. The geometry could allow for higher speeds in the future, that is all.

 

[43096]

class 92's are used in France as CC92000's and they have TVM430 for HS1/the channel tunnel so in theory could run on LGV's but the voltage change when changing to classic lines would be an issue not to mention how many paths would be needed considering they run max 140km/h

92s have never been used beyond Calais as far as I know. Indeed they are incapable of doing so as they are not fitted with French conventional lines train protection systems (crocodile/KVB).

 

[rf_ioliver]

MVGV 200kmh freight trains used the LGV Sud-Est until recently - these were a great spectacle though very few videos exist as they ran in the dead of night. Hauled by modified BB22000 "nez cassé" (broken nose, on account of their cab design).

Really? So I had to go find some videos...

High speed freight train MVGV 200:

And then there are some very nice cab rides but not on the LGV, for example:

 

[peteb]

Great videos, imagine Freightliners running at that speed on the ECML?

 

[StephenHunter]

The 67s are capable of 125mph running, FWIW.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The 67s are capable of 125mph running, FWIW.

Not up the severe inclination of the LGV! Even the PSE sets used to lose a bit of speed and they're pretty strong! Well, were, since they're no longer in service.

 

[popeter45]

The 67s are capable of 125mph running, FWIW.

yea but most fright wagons are limited to 75/80mph so without 125mph wagons little chance

 

[Giugiaro]

I heard the limit that keeps normal trains from using the LGV's are:
- Reduced weight per axle and weight per metre (one major hurdle during the development of the Duplex);
- Increased cant elevation on highspeed lines (some trains with a high centre of gravity could tip over if they came to a stop on an LGV banked curve).

 

[Richard Scott]

The 67s are capable of 125mph running, FWIW.

With 3200hp, and less at rail, they won't be hauling much. Their axle loading restricts where they can achieve this anyway?

 

[MarcVD]

I'm well aware TGVs are often diverted to run on conventional SNCF lines, but can "conventional" trains such as loco hauled IC run on the high speed network? Last year I thought some Bordeaux to Marseille intercity trains were due to call at Montpellier Sud de France but can see none at the moment. The reason for this query is associated with the possible reinstatement of intercity night trains in France. Night time traffic on lignes grand vitesse appears sparse and I wondered if there spare capacity there?

In Belgium, the night to/from Innsbruck and Vienna takes the high speed line between Liege and Leuven.

 

[30907]

In Belgium, the night to/from Innsbruck and Vienna takes the high speed line between Liege and Leuven.

True, as do normal Belgian ICs. The RJs use that section at about 1900 and 0900 IIRC so daytime anyway.