Can I break a journey on a GN Carnet Single?

[gingerheid]

Hello

I have a carnet single from KX to Cambridge and want to break my journey at Stevenage.

Is this allowed?

Thanks!

Edit: I did try their website: https://www.thameslinkrailway.com/tickets/carnet-tickets/carnet-terms-and-conditions

Page not found...

 

[AlterEgo]

Break of journey is always allowed unless the terms and conditions make clear it is forbidden.

As there are no terms and conditions....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you know what ticket type it is? I can't see a Great Northern Carnet on brfares.com, only a Greater Anglia one.

 

[gingerheid]

All the potentially relevant information from the ticket is:

STD - Carnet Peak - Adult - SGL
Valud until date - number
From KX * - Cost
To Cambridge * - Route Any permitted - Validity 3 months

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah, it's from Kings Cross, not London Terminals.

This is it:
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=KGX&dest=CBG&tkt=CNP

If it doesn't say you can't.... mind you they are very hot on looking for re-use, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was an argument or even prosecution attempt, which knowing how thick-as-the-proverbial GTR's RPIs and prosecutions department appear to be I wouldn't be surprised to see something like that needing to be defended in Court. So I think pragmatically I would purchase a separate ticket to do this if the Carnet ticket won't end up wasted.

 

[gingerheid]

Blimey... err... thanks!

That is... not a response I was expecting! I was expecting a yes or no.

What am I getting myself in for with these tickets? Based on your logic, and given these tickets don't actually offer much of a discount...?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I personally would not touch them with an elongated and well-insulated bargepole. Do a bit of searching on here for the kind of problems people have had with them - all sorts of allegations of re-use. Basically if you even slightly slip up when dating one you have to bin it, then you've saved nothing.

 

[gingerheid]

Err... interesting.

If one wanted to prove what trains one travelled on, what would one do? It's hard to think how you would prove yourself innocent on this one!

Photos of the departure monitor on the platform at KX and the departure board from the other side of the barriers at Stevenage?

 

[najaB]

My understanding is that carnets don't, generally, allow BoJ.

 

[Failed Unit]

My understanding is that carnets don't, generally, allow BoJ.

I would agree, although I haven't see anything explicitly wrote down I know of 2 examples in the region that would suggest no.

1. If I get off at Hatfield with a Carnet (to WGC) they physically take the ticket off me at the barrier. Not an issue as I am completing my journey early that seems to be allowed - next time I will ask about the BOJ.

2. Some of the stations on the route don't offer Carnets. I know someone who asked to buy Hatfield - London tickets from Welham Green for use a Welham Green, they were refused saying this isn't allowed. The person selling may of course be incorrect.

Considering these tickets attract guilty until proven innocent behavour from RPI I wouldn't bother. I think they are only available at barried stations so at least they stand a chance of catching repeated users.

 

[Merseysider]

Until the Neil Williams Solution™ of machine compostage is introduced I wouldn't even think about using carnets, even if they offered a greater discount.

We have a new thread every month or so about someone having issues with them. Previous examples include this case, this one and this one.

Don't go near them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hee hee, I'm impressed it's got my name on it now!

 

[Joe Paxton]

Mechanical compostage seems an unlikely prospect.

Smartcard compostage i.e. validation is the rather more likely method.

Of course with a smartcard carnet a user would need to ensure they had 'touched in' (i.e. validated their card before travel). They'd also need to keep track of how many tickets were left in their virtual carnet on their smartcard.

I think I'd be willing to use a paper carnet, but only very carefully - with a specific type of pen that works well, carefully dating the ticket before passing into the fare paid area. No mad dash to catch the train without having filled it in!

 

[Failed Unit]

Mechanical compostage seems an unlikely prospect.

Smartcard compostage i.e. validation is the rather more likely method.

Of course with a smartcard carnet a user would need to ensure they had 'touched in' (i.e. validated their card before travel). They'd also need to keep track of how many tickets were left in their virtual carnet on their smartcard.

I think I'd be willing to use a paper carnet, but only very carefully - with a specific type of pen that works well, carefully dating the ticket before passing into the fare paid area. No mad dash to catch the train without having filled it in!

Us users would love to see the Carnet on the Smart Card - unfortunatly GTR have no interest in doing so - they are probably thinking about the loss of revenue as a result of no longer persecuting travellers.

The Carnets do offer significant savings to use that can travel on way with a "Peak" carnet and the other way on "Off Peak". Not sure about the saving if you are travelling both ways either Peak or Off-Peak. I would need to travel 5 days per week to justify a season ticket. I normally only do 4 hence the Carnet is cheaper even with its hazards and heavy handed RPI attention.

 

[gingerheid]

I've had my eyes opened...

My work are paying... so there isn't even any saving to me. I just thought they seemed easier than queuing up at the ticket machine every Monday morning...

I am paranoid now - normally I write European 1s and 7s, which I suspect they might not like if they were trying to be awkward.

 

[yorkie]

....if they were trying to be awkward.

I think that the ability to be awkward and trying to catch people out is one of the main 'qualities' this despicable company looks for when recruiting the dubious individuals who they employ as revenue protection 'officers'.

Be very careful. Some of the horror stories I've heard about these unsavoury individuals are absolutely disgusting.

 

[mattdickinson]

Mechanical compostage seems an unlikely prospect.

Smartcard compostage i.e. validation is the rather more likely method.

Of course with a smartcard carnet a user would need to ensure they had 'touched in' (i.e. validated their card before travel). They'd also need to keep track of how many tickets were left in their virtual carnet on their smartcard.

I think I'd be willing to use a paper carnet, but only very carefully - with a specific type of pen that works well, carefully dating the ticket before passing into the fare paid area. No mad dash to catch the train without having filled it in!

London Transport managed it in the days before Oyster. They even had carnet validators at places like Moorgate Great Northern to cover passengers entering the tube without passing through a gateline.

 

[najaB]

London Transport managed it in the days before Oyster.

You'll find though that similar mechanical systems have largely been replaced by electronic ones.

When I moved to Dundee, daily, weekly and ten-journey bus tickets were issued as a magnetic stripe ticket that you inserted into a on-bus validator. In the case of ten-journey tickets the validator would print the time/date of use - more or less the Neil Williams Solution™.

Pretty much every journey you could be sure that there would be someone whose ticket had a creased corner and wouldn't go into the validator, or it would fail to read the stripe, or it would get stuck inside, etc. The driver would have to get up, try some percussive maintenance, open the validator and (more often than the company would like) eventually declare it failed and everyone who had something that looked like a valid ticket would get a free journey.

They've now moved to an ITSO smart card solution and I've yet to see a failure that wasn't down to the physical card being damaged. Even nicer, because it's ITSO and the bus companies up here talk with each other they've introduced the ABC (All Bus Company) ticket which means I can use any local bus I want.

 

[Joe Paxton]

London Transport managed it in the days before Oyster. They even had carnet validators at places like Moorgate Great Northern to cover passengers entering the tube without passing through a gateline.

They did indeed, but that was then and this is now, and smartcards are apparently the future.

 

[jon0844]

The Key would be ideal and could allow break of journey if you always touched in and out, as it would know you hadn't completed a full journey. The ticket would automatically expire at 0429 whether the rest of the journey was made or not.

The problem now is that often readers are disabled (off) at stations so you can't tap out. I was told recently that some gatelines when left often don't accept the cards, while the standalone readers by some exits are off or broken.

Then you'd have a problem. The next touch in would likely mean a new ticket used, or if you couldn't touch in either, hard questions about why it took so long to get to your destination...

Personally, I'd love to have a bunch of HAT to KGX tickets loaded up on my Key so I could just turn up and go. Mind you, I'd also like PAYG options (which could apply discounts equivalent to the carnet system) and none of that is happening.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The main issue with having Carnets issued on a Smartcard, or as a two part ticket with date boxes like a Flexi Rover, is that you can't then share it with someone else like you can with <n> separate tickets.

 

[jon0844]

The main issue with having Carnets issued on a Smartcard, or as a two part ticket with date boxes like a Flexi Rover, is that you can't then share it with someone else like you can with separate tickets.

I'm not sure that's a major problem. While you can share now, I'm not sure that's the intended purpose. It's that one person gets x tickets for the price of y.

Otherwise, why not just buy load of carnet tickets and resell them at a slight premium? Sure, you're not allowed to do that, but if you didn't do it on a station concourse I'm sure you could. Maybe people already do.

The buyer gets a slight discount, and you make a small profit that adds up over time.

Incidentally, I found this from 2015 that says a load of things for The Key that still haven't happened.

(photo: PDF document of an ITSO newsletter talking about new features of the Key due in 2016)

Link: https://goo.gl/photos/ru8sn3zAvUsJ71PE8

 

[najaB]

I'm not sure that's a major problem. While you can share now, I'm not sure that's the intended purpose. It's that one person gets x tickets for the price of y.

Carnets are one of the few (the only?) ticket types that can, completely legitimately, be used by a person other than the one for whom they were bought (excluding tickets bought by a company/organisation).

 

[infobleep]

Mechanical compostage seems an unlikely prospect.

Smartcard compostage i.e. validation is the rather more likely method.

Of course with a smartcard carnet a user would need to ensure they had 'touched in' (i.e. validated their card before travel). They'd also need to keep track of how many tickets were left in their virtual carnet on their smartcard.

I think I'd be willing to use a paper carnet, but only very carefully - with a specific type of pen that works well, carefully dating the ticket before passing into the fare paid area. No mad dash to catch the train without having filled it in!

I preload day saver tickets onto my Key card for use on the Brighton and Hove buses. I don't always remember how many I have remaining but I can look this information up online if I wish to do so.

Something similar for the railways wouldn't be difficult by modern standards I'd have thought. Willingness to implement it might be a factor of course.

 

[infobleep]

You'll find though that similar mechanical systems have largely been replaced by electronic ones.

When I moved to Dundee, daily, weekly and ten-journey bus tickets were issued as a magnetic stripe ticket that you inserted into a on-bus validator. In the case of ten-journey tickets the validator would print the time/date of use - more or less the Neil Williams Solution™.

Pretty much every journey you could be sure that there would be someone whose ticket had a creased corner and wouldn't go into the validator, or it would fail to read the stripe, or it would get stuck inside, etc. The driver would have to get up, try some percussive maintenance, open the validator and (more often than the company would like) eventually declare it failed and everyone who had something that looked like a valid ticket would get a free journey.

They've now moved to an ITSO smart card solution and I've yet to see a failure that wasn't down to the physical card being damaged. Even nicer, because it's ITSO and the bus companies up here talk with each other they've introduced the ABC (All Bus Company) ticket which means I can use any local bus I want.

I had an issue in Brighton last year where my card errored. Turned out that in recent weeks cards had started to fail and they didn't know why at that point. Had to issue me with a new one. My card isn't used that often but is used several times a year at least.

 

[jon0844]

Carnets are one of the few (the only?) ticket types that can, completely legitimately, be used by a person other than the one for whom they were bought (excluding tickets bought by a company/organisation).

Can The Key be shared, if not loaded with a season ticket?