Can I overnight break journey on a Super Off-Peak Single (Online)?

kiancross

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LNER website shows I can get an Advanced ticket from Cambridge to Skipton and then a Super Off-Peak Single (Online) ticket from Skipton back to Cambridge. Can I break the return journey overnight (Saturday to Sunday)? I've seen some threads on here saying yes, you can, but when searching most of those were from a few years ago (although possible I've not searched properly for recent ones).

Ticket terms and conditions for this ticket on the LNER website say (restriction code is 1L):

Overnight break of journey - if the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, time restrictions apply as from the initial origin station on both days.
But when I contacted LNER support to ask they said:

"if the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day" - this in regards to delayed or canceled services
When I asked if I could break the journey overnight if I took the last train from Skipton to Leeds such that there were no ongoing trains to Cambridge, they said:

it is your responsibility for the full journey to be taken in one day
(I did provide to the support person the wording that was on their website)

So my questions:
  1. Can I break the journey overnight? If yes:
  2. What if the ticket doesn't let me back through the gate on the second day and the operator won't let me through?
  3. What if the train guard won't accept the ticket?
  4. Are their any other conditions I need to be aware of if doing this?
 
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Bletchleyite

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There seem to be lots of different interpretations of this. I personally lean towards the middle interpretation - if you run out of trains you can break overnight, and can do that before you actually run out e.g. due to availability of your preferred hotel accommodation (or *any* accommodation!), it's enough that you would run out if you continued. However, you can't have an elected break, e.g. start at 0600 then decide at 1200 that you want to break overnight despite the fact that you can still reach your destination that day.

I think @yorkie may have quoted rail industry documentation that suggests that the intended interpretation is slightly wider than that.

However, I can entirely see why it would be read the way that LNER member of staff reads it.

It's a right mess, and I don't see why they don't just make all singles that aren't Day Singles valid for two full days with BoJ allowed. If they wanted not to allow overnight stops they could then switch to issuing Day Singles instead rather than pratting with weasel wording.

As for "what if the train is cancelled", if you were stranded overnight you would be allowed to continue your journey the following morning, even on a Day Single. So that's a bit of a non-argument.
 

gray1404

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The following applies to an Super Off Peak Single and Off Peak Single ticket:
Your ticket is valid until 0430 on day 3 of validity. You must commence your journey on the date printed on the ticket (day 1) but you can then break your journey as many times as you want until the end of it's validity (or until you finish the journey) on 0430 on day 3. It is totally up to you where, and at what times, you break your journey. However, when you both start and recommence your journey you must always comply with the time restrictions applicable to your ticket.
 

kiancross

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There seem to be lots of different interpretations of this. I personally lean towards the middle interpretation - if you run out of trains you can break overnight, and can do that before you actually run out e.g. due to availability of your preferred hotel accommodation (or *any* accommodation!), it's enough that you would run out if you continued. However, you can't have an elected break, e.g. start at 0600 then decide at 1200 that you want to break overnight despite the fact that you can still reach your destination that day.

I think @yorkie may have quoted rail industry documentation that suggests that the intended interpretation is slightly wider than that.
Thanks - I saw @yorkie post that it is allowed but couldn't find anything too recent.

The following applies to an Super Off Peak Single and Off Peak Single ticket:
Your ticket is valid until 0430 on day 3 of validity. You must commence your journey on the date printed on the ticket (day 1) but you can then break your journey as many times as you want until the end of it's validity (or until you finish the journey) on 0430 on day 3.
Source for this?

Perhaps a better question: for the cost of a £6 ticket between Skipton and Leeds, is it worth the hassle of potentially getting told my ticket is invalid, having to purchase a new one etc etc?
 

Bletchleyite

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Thanks - I saw @yorkie post that it is allowed but couldn't find anything too recent.
Your case is slightly complicated by the ticket you are looking at having a specific "no BoJ" restriction. Most Off Peak Singles don't.

Perhaps a better question: for the cost of a £6 ticket between Skipton and Leeds, is it worth the hassle of potentially getting told my ticket is invalid, having to purchase a new one etc etc?
If it's only 6 quid I'd probably cough up to avoid any arguments, though others may vary on that. Of course by doing that you're technically breaching the restriction by ending short (though this is mostly unenforced on walk-up tickets unless it's done to circumvent a ticket restriction e.g. the Preston/Lancaster issue, simply because there's no scope to penalise someone for doing it with a walk-up as they can simply return to the platform and take the next suitable train).
 

kiancross

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Your case is slightly complicated by the ticket you are looking at having a specific "no BoJ" restriction. Most Off Peak Singles don't.
Where do you see the "no BoJ" restriction - is that essentially what I wrote in the initial post about only breaking if the journey can't be completed in a day?
 

Bletchleyite

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Where do you see the "no BoJ" restriction - is that essentially what I wrote in the initial post about only breaking if the journey can't be completed in a day?
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=SKI&dest=CBG&rte=700&tkt=SSU

The SSU fare appears to be a specific variant of Super Off Peak Single which bars break of journey regardless of the restriction code. The restriction code itself mentions BoJ because it is used on tickets that do allow it.

The SVH, a similar ticket issued by Avanti West Coast (who in the form of VT did it first) does not, e.g.:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=MKC&dest=MAN&grpd=0438&tkt=SVH

Did anyone say simple? :D
 

sheff1

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Your case is slightly complicated by the ticket you are looking at having a specific "no BoJ" restriction.
Where is that stated ? The LNER site says "A break of journey is permitted unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code"

In restriction code 1L on National Rail Enquiries there is nothing about no BoJ. Indeed, it specifically refers to BoJ thus: "Overnight Break of Journey, restarting journey from an intermediate station: Outward (on day 2) - outward morning restrictions as above apply." with no mention of any restrictions on circumstances when the journey can be broken overnight, just confirmation of the applicable time restrictions if it is.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Where is that stated ? The LNER site says "A break of journey is permitted unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code"
For restriction code is 1L there is nothing about no BoJ. https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/64262.aspxIndeed, it particularly refers to BoJ thus:
"Overnight Break of Journey, restarting journey from an intermediate station: Outward (on day 2) - outward morning restrictions as above apply." with no mention of any restrictions on circumstances when the journey can be broken overnight, just confirmation of the applicable time restrictions if it is.
See my link above. As I mentioned, TOCs all of a sudden seem to have started coming up with their own ticket types, and the SSU bars it at ticket type level, it's not a normal Super Off Peak Single which doesn't.

Lord knows why other TOCs couldn't just use the SVH and SSH as created by Virgin Trains who did this first. Though the SSH also has a ticket level "no BoJ" restriction.

Simple? :D
 

kiancross

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The SSU fare appears to be a specific variant of Super Off Peak Single which bars break of journey regardless of the restriction code. The restriction code itself mentions BoJ because it is used on tickets that do allow it.
I assume "no BoJ" restriction includes same day break of journey? Back to original case, if chosen start time from Skipton does not allow the journey to be completed in the day, can I resume on day 2 with this restriction? And does start time on day 2 matter - I can't imagine they'd be pleased if I got a train at 6pm back to Cambridge from Leeds if I was telling them my journey couldn't be completed on the previous day?
 

sheff1

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This is now visible on some TVMs when issuing such tickets, I saw it on one today.
I didn't think it was possible to buy an "Online" ticket from a TVM. Are you saying some TVMs are now displaying restrictions when you collect tickets bought on line ?

BRFares is just providing a way to see it for the purposes of the discussion.
BRFares states: This is an independent website ..... This site is not accredited by National Rail.

NRE states: We are the definitive source of customer information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland. National Rail Enquiries is part of the Rail Delivery Group (RDG).

If, as in this case, BRFares is saying something different to NRE then NRE must be considered to be the definitive information.
 

kiancross

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Yes, though this is very, very rarely enforced.
Should also note that on the LNER website, for this ticket the T&Cs say:

A break of journey is permitted unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code.
This then continues onto the overnight BoJ I put in the OP. So while BRFares does seem to indicate no BoJ, the text on the LNER website would suggest otherwise (for a BoJ within a day)?
 

Bletchleyite

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I didn't think it was possible to buy an "Online" ticket from a TVM. Are you saying some TVMs are now displaying restrictions when you collect tickets bought on line ?
Yes, Avanti West Coast's machines (Shere, I think) absolutely do, I was quite surprised by it when collecting some tickets at Penrith yesterday. There wasn't one of these involved, but there was an Advance (I've now used more of these this weekend than in the last year :) ) and while that printed the screen clearly stated "No break of journey".

If, as in this case, BRFares is saying something different to NRE then NRE must be considered to be the definitive information.
You might well find that argument would stand up in Court if you wanted to go that far with it, because the railway has applied a restriction which you could buy a ticket without seeing it. I suspect however we will end up seeing this data on the ticket soon enough (and with it will come more idiotic issues like that documented a while ago at Clapham Jn of people being refused being able to pass a barrier to visit a shop within the station building but technically off railway land).

However, the railway clearly intends this to be the case.
 

Indigo2

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BRFares is saying something different to NRE
It's not. As Bletchleyite indicates, it's just giving you extra information that NRE is not giving you. NRE only gives information on break of journey restrictions that are in the restriction code. There are very few ticket types this is relevant to. BR Fares additionally gives you information on break of journey restrictions associated with the ticket type. NRE simply does not show you this information. As I understand it, your argument is that because it is operated by RDG, it is (in a way) infallible and if it says it is definitive, then it must be, even if that causes inconsistencies elsewhere. I sort of accept that argument, but it is a messy one!
 

sheff1

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As I understand it, your argument is that because it is operated by RDG, it is (in a way) infallible and if it says it is definitive, then it must be, even if that causes inconsistencies elsewhere. I sort of accept that argument, but it is a messy one!
My argument is more that if a customer wants to check, as per the statement on the LNER site, whether a BoJ restriction is shown against the ticket's Restriction Code then they should be checking the Restriction Code on the official RDG NRE site and not on an independent unaccredited site which someone has posted a link to on an internet forum.
 

Bletchleyite

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My argument is more that if a customer wants to check, as per the statement on the LNER site, whether a BoJ restriction is shown against the ticket's Restriction Code then they should be checking the Restriction Code on the official RDG NRE site and not on an independent unaccredited site which someone has posted a link to on an internet forum.
That is probably true, however LNER clearly do not want people breaking their journey on those tickets. So while you might well win in Court with that argument, I suspect you'd need to go that far if an issue was made of it.
 

v199629

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So will the ticket be valid if I take the last train from Skipton to Leeds. Break the journey at Leeds. Then take the first train available with the ticket (probably the 0945 to Peterborough)?
 

island

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Yes it is valid – how well you will get on with gatelines and guards on the second day is another matter.
 

kieron

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It's not. As Bletchleyite indicates, it's just giving you extra information that NRE is not giving you. NRE only gives information on break of journey restrictions that are in the restriction code.
NRE has pages on different ticket types. If you search for a journey on their web site, the page has a few links on it with the ticket type printed on them. Some of these go to a page with information about that ticket type, and (where appropriate) a link at the bottom to a page with information about the restriction code.

The ones for SSU tickets look like this. With regard to break of journey, it says:

A break of journey is permitted unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code.

This is the same as the LNER site, so I don't think anyone should be worried about whether or not they can break their journey as and when they please with (in this case) a Cambridge-Skipton super off peak single.
 

Bletchleyite

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This is the same as the LNER site, so I don't think anyone should be worried about whether or not they can break their journey as and when they please with (in this case) a Cambridge-Skipton super off peak single.
Are you suggesting the information on BRFares on this ticket type is wrong? And by extension that, if you collected one from an Avanti TVM, that the statement that BoJ is banned which would appear on the screen of that would also be wrong?

I'd say:
1. You will get away with same-day break of journey on any walk-up ticket whether allowed or not, because staff won't know if it's banned or not. The only time you won't is something like from Lancaster at Preston because the staff know the fares loophole related to it.

2. You will have to argue the toss about overnight break of journey on the outward portion of any (Super) Off Peak ticket, unless it's a journey where you have obviously used one of the Sleepers and so haven't actually broken it at all anyway. When you do, it helps being correct.
 

kieron

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It's not a question of right or wrong. The CPS have a test that there must be a realistic prospect of conviction before they will take a case to court. I would expect train companies to do something similar, if only because it would look bad if the public found out they had harrassed someone when they didn't believe they could show that person had done anything wrong.

If your web site says a passenger can break a journey, and "the definitive source of customer information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland" says a passenger can break a journey, you'd never convince a court that the passenger couldn't break that journey.

Exactly the same problem would exist if a TVM the passenger had used said break of journey was fine but the web sites said it wasn't. Consistency is the key.
 

Bletchleyite

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That may be true, but most people are not confident enough to push it all the way to prosecution - or may simply not be allowed through a barrier to start with. So I would suggest that the legal situation is not relevant to the vast majority of people doing this.
 

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