Can Liverpool Lime Street expand?

[John55]

In days gone by, they were used to stable coaches and/or to park steam locos waiting for their next duty. Moving the current platforms might be feasible, but expensive and would disrupt station working for months.

I noticed the other day that NR has applied for a Network Change to remove he sidings between 1&2, 3&4, 5&6 and alongside 7. Most if not all are currently unusable (rails removed).

Why would disrupting station working be a problem? If Liverpool Central can close for 4/6 months with no alternative facility provided I assume NR could shut Lime St for a year or so to alter the platforms and no one would mind.

 

[ukrob]

Why would disrupting station working be a problem? If Liverpool Central can close for 6/8 months with no alternative facility provided I assume NR could shut Lime St for a year or so to alter the platforms and no one would mind.

There are alternatives. Moorfields is a five to ten minute walk away as is James Street. Liverpool Central will remain fully operational during the closure - trains will still pass through it and reverse there - just without passengers as there will be no passenger facilities. That is vastly different to closing a mainline terminus!

 

[The Planner]

Why would you need to close it ? perfectly feasible to knock out a platform at a time, happening currently at New St.

 

[John55]

Why would you need to close it ? perfectly feasible to knock out a platform at a time, happening currently at New St.

Irony old boy. Sorry I won't do it again.

 

[Statto]

But most of the trains run more or less empty except for 4 hours a day!

Trains going through St Helens Central can be heaving between the peaks, & on Saturdays, & struggling to find a seat on the Blackpool express, even trains via SHJ can be busy especially the Huyton-Lime Street section.

 

[The Planner]

Irony old boy. Sorry I won't do it again.

Is it too late to claim I am American and don't understand it ?

 

[ainsworth74]

Is it too late to claim I am American and don't understand it ?

After 2,500 posts? I think it might be

 

[DavidL]

I noticed the other day that NR has applied for a Network Change to remove he sidings between 1&2, 3&4, 5&6 and alongside 7. Most if not all are currently unusable (rails removed).

Interesting - is this a new change application?

I only ask as I can't remember a time when the sidings actually had intact points; I wasn't entirely sure of the practical value in having left the rest of the track there. In fact, don't the disconnected ends of track curiously have apparently pointless little derailers bolted to them?

I wonder do they plan to do something with the liberated areas? Perhaps the platform plan is underway? Failing that, more retail space, perhaps? An at-track-level Costa Coffee?

 

[John55]

Interesting - is this a new change application?

I only ask as I can't remember a time when the sidings actually had intact points; I wasn't entirely sure of the practical value in having left the rest of the track there. In fact, don't the disconnected ends of track curiously have apparently pointless little derailers bolted to them?

I wonder do they plan to do something with the liberated areas? Perhaps the platform plan is underway? Failing that, more retail space, perhaps? An at-track-level Costa Coffee?

Network Change application LNW531 from Jan 2012.

The nework change request doesn't give any reason other than removal of unused assets.

I suspect the track and derailers were left as it was easier to remove the odd rails and leave everything else until some other job actually required some serious effort. I think the derailers are/were incorporated into the interlocking so removal might have been a substantial bit of work.

 

[exile]

Trains going through St Helens Central can be heaving between the peaks, & on Saturdays, & struggling to find a seat on the Blackpool express, even trains via SHJ can be busy especially the Huyton-Lime Street section.

The NW regional RUS found no evidence of overcrowding outside peak hours and as someone who uses Lime St most days I find no reason to dispute this. The Lime St-Warrington Central-Manchester stoppers are never anywhere near full except at the peak (when they can be rammed admittedly). I've never, ever, had to stand when on the Liverpool-Runcorn-Birmingham trains even during the peak.

Basically, at current level of demand, there is no case for providing extra train paths..... all that's required is to strengthen train formations in peak hours.

 

[ukrob]

It is Chat Moss routes that are the busy ones, neither of the routes you have just mentioned.

 

[exile]

It is Chat Moss routes that are the busy ones, neither of the routes you have just mentioned.

Well, I have a day off work tomorrow - I'll try this out - will drive to Lea Green and see if I have trouble getting on the train to Lime St.....

 

[Bevan Price]

The NW regional RUS found no evidence of overcrowding outside peak hours

The surveys must have been done outside the school holidays. During school holidays, off-peak services between St. Helens Central & St. Helens Junction to / from Liverpool can get rather overcrowded.

 

[ukrob]

The surveys must have been done outside the school holidays. During school holidays, off-peak services between St. Helens Central & St. Helens Junction to / from Liverpool can get rather overcrowded.

Of course they would be - they need to know what it is like most of the year - not special circumstances.

 

[John55]

The NW regional RUS found no evidence of overcrowding outside peak hours and as someone who uses Lime St most days I find no reason to dispute this. The Lime St-Warrington Central-Manchester stoppers are never anywhere near full except at the peak (when they can be rammed admittedly). I've never, ever, had to stand when on the Liverpool-Runcorn-Birmingham trains even during the peak.

Basically, at current level of demand, there is no case for providing extra train paths..... all that's required is to strengthen train formations in peak hours.

I use these routes into Lime St fairly frequently from Broad Green and it is the only station I fail to board trains regularly due to overcrowding and I use Southeastern to/from London normally.

I believe one problem which Northern don't address well is the variability of traffic from day to day and at different times of year. Southeastern do vary the train length of the principle off peak service to provide 8 cars instead of 4 cars to Charing Cross for example in summer but they do have lots of unused trains then.

Of course they would be - they need to know what it is like most of the year - not special circumstances.

School holidays are not special circumstances. They are 25% of the year and more common than Sundays (14% of the year). Last weekend in and out of Liverpool was special circumstances due to the Sea Odyssey event and the weekend before due to the Grand National but not school holidays.

 

[ukrob]

Maybe 'special circumstances'' was the wrong term. The point stands.

 

[ainsworth74]

I believe one problem which Northern don't address well is the variability of traffic from day to day and at different times of year. Southeastern do vary the train length of the principle off peak service to provide 8 cars instead of 4 cars to Charing Cross for example in summer but they do have lots of unused trains then.

Problem is that Northern don't have many unused train at all. If you go past Newton Heath or Neville Hill in the middle of the day there will be one or two units of Northern rolling stock but I would bet most of that is being maintained. Going past Hornsey on the other hand (for example) tends reveal a dozen or more units I'm sure a fair few of which could be used to double up services if needed.

So the issue is that Northern can't physically address variations in traffic because they don't have any extra rolling stock even in the off-peak.

 

[exile]

Result of today's survey - Lea Green to Lime Street and return. No problem getting a seat. Possibly 70 people aboard on arriving at Lime St - maybe 30-40 going back to Lea Green.

 

[ukrob]

It is a pointless 'survey'. Anyone can see from your previous posts on the thread that you had made your mind up before you even went out.

FWIW I was standing on an off peak stopper from Wigan to Liverpool (I got on nearer Liverpool than you) today. But what do I know? I only use the line five to six days a week compared to your once when you feel like it

 

[DavidL]

I suspect the track and derailers were left as it was easier to remove the odd rails and leave everything else until some other job actually required some serious effort. I think the derailers are/were incorporated into the interlocking so removal might have been a substantial bit of work.

John; sorry for the delay but your suggested explanation seems to tie in with the apparent evidence. Going into work this morning, I kept an eye out for the derailers and noticed that they seemed to be connected to some sort of control gear - your suggestion re: the interlocking seems very logical indeed.

Exile - just out of interest, what times were you travelling? My work patterns mean that while I usually travel in the standard peaks, I do get to experience mid-morning and early afternoon "traffic" too. My observations are that the peaks are generally packed - then there seems to be an artificial peak of about an hour just after the real morning peak, after which it calms down for an hour or two (40ish per train sound about right?) and then steadily builds to the afternoon rush. I've also found that the semifasts and expresses are often considerably busier than the stoppers once outside Liverpool itself, though I guess that this is to be expected.

I must admit, this week is a welcome change - this is the first week that it's just been crowded, rather than crush-crowded as it's been the past few weeks what with school holidays and Big Liverpool Events.

This said, the 1831 Wigan NW service tonight had it's recent usual formation halved from its (welcomed!) double donkey down to a single. Crowded until about Huyton when seats started to become available. I think after Prescot, anyone who wanted a seat had one.
In fact, as a rule on that line - I tend to find Huyton or Prescot tends to be where the remaining passengers can breathe out a bit

Ha - Rob, just read your post as I was about to post mine. It wasn't the 1831, was it?
-David

 

[John55]

The NW regional RUS found no evidence of overcrowding outside peak hours and as someone who uses Lime St most days I find no reason to dispute this. The Lime St-Warrington Central-Manchester stoppers are never anywhere near full except at the peak (when they can be rammed admittedly). I've never, ever, had to stand when on the Liverpool-Runcorn-Birmingham trains even during the peak.

Basically, at current level of demand, there is no case for providing extra train paths..... all that's required is to strengthen train formations in peak hours.

I do agree with your point that longer trains are the solution to any crowding issues - certainly they will solve any problems off peak.

I should advise caution about the NW RUS for two reasons.

1 Although published in 2007 the traffic data which it was based on was collected in 2004/5. Since this data was collected I believe better data is available. I certainly remember Merseytravel pointed out undercounting of 35% in loadings.

2 Traffic growth has exceeded the predictions of the RUS in the last 7 years.

About 3 weeks ago I caught a lunchtime train from Lime St to Wigan on a Friday and it was only after St Helens that standing wasn't required (I counted 53 getting off at St Helens).

Problem is that Northern don't have many unused train at all. If you go past Newton Heath or Neville Hill in the middle of the day there will be one or two units of Northern rolling stock but I would bet most of that is being maintained. Going past Hornsey on the other hand (for example) tends reveal a dozen or more units I'm sure a fair few of which could be used to double up services if needed.

So the issue is that Northern can't physically address variations in traffic because they don't have any extra rolling stock even in the off-peak.

Why then do I find all those dead DMUs in Lime St? Although better in recent weeks it was common on any day to arrive in a crammed 2 car dmu and find 3 o 4 x 2 car units sitting dead in the platforms. Even worse you often had to walk past them to get to the ticket barrier.