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Can Mark 1 rolling stock be coupled to a class 101 DMU?

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PaxmanValenta

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Could mark 1 or MK 2 rolling stock such as a TSK or buffet car be coupled to a class 101 DMU with the gangways connected, if so how many MK1/2 coaches could be coupled in a class 101 hauled set?
 
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RichmondCommu

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Back in the 1960's and perhaps 1970's DMU's did on occasion haul parcel vans so I don't see why not but on the other hand how many class 101's still exist in preservation?

From memory a class 101 was still running on the Hope Valley stoppers in the mid 1990's. How they lasted so long is anyone's guess.
 

Ash Bridge

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Back in the 1960's and perhaps 1970's DMU's did on occasion haul parcel vans so I don't see why not but on the other hand how many class 101's still exist in preservation?

From memory a class 101 was still running on the Hope Valley stoppers in the mid 1990's. How they lasted so long is anyone's guess.

I'm sure they lingered on until around 2003/4, not sure if they were still getting to Sheffield so often then but certainly on the Piccadilly to Marple services.
 

randyrippley

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Could mark 1 or MK 2 rolling stock such as a TSK or buffet car be coupled to a class 101 DMU with the gangways connected, if so how many MK1/2 coaches could be coupled in a class 101 hauled set?

I can't answer your question, but the Western Region class 119 and 120 CrossCountry sets used to haul coaches. To quote wiki:
"as 7-car sets, with the addition of Hawksworth composites adapted to run as DMU trailers." i.e. 2x3 car plus one old coach
However.....I can remember 1960's sunny weekends at Weymouth when 8-car sets were made up: 2x3 car plus two red-painted suburban non-corridor coaches.

As to how many? If it took 4 power cars to drive 6 DMU coaches plus one or two attached, then - depending on route, half a trailer per power car. Of course thats assuming those old coaches were a similar weight to a MkI or MkII (which I guess is probably wrong)
Obviously, there were no gangways to connect but if there had been I can't see a problem
Of course remember you'd have to run multiple-unit controls through the coaches...
 

RichmondCommu

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I'm sure they lingered on until around 2003/4, not sure if they were still getting to Sheffield so often then but certainly on the Piccadilly to Marple services.

Blimey I didn't realise they'd hung around that long. My wife and I are keen hill walkers and we would have caught them several times on our trips up to Edale. I remember being sat on our rucksacks in the guards area when things got really busy.

Just as an after thought did they finish their days painted in green or is my memory playing tricks on me?
 

neilb62

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They could be coupled and hauled as trailers but the gangways would be incompatible. You couldn't put them in the middle of a unit for instance.
 

steamybrian

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They could be coupled and hauled as trailers but the gangways would be incompatible. You couldn't put them in the middle of a unit for instance.

I full agree.

On the Spa Valley Railway a class 101 driving trailer has been coupled at the end of a set of mark 1 stock to strengthen services during "Day out with Thomas" events.
 

dubscottie

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The gangways could be connected if a conversion plate was fitted to the DMU vehicle.

Its how the 101 observation coach on the Kyle line was coupled.
 

Ash Bridge

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Blimey I didn't realise they'd hung around that long. My wife and I are keen hill walkers and we would have caught them several times on our trips up to Edale. I remember being sat on our rucksacks in the guards area when things got really busy.

Just as an after thought did they finish their days painted in green or is my memory playing tricks on me?

Yes, 101685 'Daisy' was the BR green set, I've some slides taken of her during her last days of service out of Piccadilly, sadly never managed to travel on her though, pretty certain it went into preservation but can't think where.
 

edwin_m

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If formed in the middle of the unit the coach would need the necessary through connections to allow the cab at one end to drive the engine at the other. It might also need a second vacuum pipe for the DMU quick-release brakes, although these may be able to work "single pipe" like two-pipe air brakes can.
 

6Gman

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Not quite the same thing, but I'm sure I recall a DMU vehicle (possibly from an InterCity unit) being included in a loco-hauled set used Crewe-Cardiff in the mid/late 70s.
 

Phil.

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The early DMUs used the British Standard gangway which was narrow and short and had to be manually couple using a set of fixed levers. B.R. Mk1 and 2 stock used Pullman gangways which simply pushed together and were kept to gether by sprung faceplates and a footplate above the buckeye coupling. Inter-City DMUs also featured Pullman gangways as they had buckeye couplings.
So, the answer to whether a class 101 (or for that matter any screw coupled DMU could work with Mk 1 stock is yes - as long as the Mk1 is formed at the rear unless someone has gone to the expense of fitting such stock with an additional vacuum brake pipe with it's reversed couplings for the 30" release reservoir. An adapter kit is (was) available for Pullman/BS gangways but it's a bit of a faff to fit.
DMUs in East Anglia regularly hauled a PMV around for parcels traffic. As a small aside, EMUs used to haul a parcels van on the Braintree branch making them as far as I'm able to tell the only EMUs that hauled stock.
Someone's going to tell me about REPs hauling TCs shortly but TCs weren't freight.
 

PaxmanValenta

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The early DMUs used the British Standard gangway which was narrow and short and had to be manually couple using a set of fixed levers. B.R. Mk1 and 2 stock used Pullman gangways which simply pushed together and were kept to gether by sprung faceplates and a footplate above the buckeye coupling. Inter-City DMUs also featured Pullman gangways as they had buckeye couplings.
So, the answer to whether a class 101 (or for that matter any screw coupled DMU could work with Mk 1 stock is yes - as long as the Mk1 is formed at the rear unless someone has gone to the expense of fitting such stock with an additional vacuum brake pipe with it's reversed couplings for the 30" release reservoir. An adapter kit is (was) available for Pullman/BS gangways but it's a bit of a faff to fit.
DMUs in East Anglia regularly hauled a PMV around for parcels traffic. As a small aside, EMUs used to haul a parcels van on the Braintree branch making them as far as I'm able to tell the only EMUs that hauled stock.
Someone's going to tell me about REPs hauling TCs shortly but TCs weren't freight.

Thanks Phil excellent answer. :)
I have seen at my local South Devon Railway in Buckfastleigh the gangways of MK1 coaches coupled to a wide range of pre-nationalisation rolling stock which lacked buckeye coupling and had relatively long canvas gangways. Maybe the older gangways were adapted with spring loading by SDR to press up against the Pullman type gangways of the MK1 stock?
 

dubscottie

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Thanks Phil excellent answer. :)
I have seen at my local South Devon Railway in Buckfastleigh the gangways of MK1 coaches coupled to a wide range of pre-nationalisation rolling stock which lacked buckeye coupling and had relatively long canvas gangways. Maybe the older gangways were adapted with spring loading by SDR to press up against the Pullman type gangways of the MK1 stock?

Most GWR/LMS gangway stock was fitted with adaptors in the late 40's so they could connect LNER & Southern stock during wartime and later for Mk1's.

If I remember right, the buffers have to be in the "short" position on the buckeye vehicle and the screw coupling tightened till the side buffers touched so as not to overstretch the scissor gangway.

If the coach did not have an adaptor fitted then both gangways had to be locked out of use with the buffers on the buckeye coach in the "long" position.

The gangways (or rubbing plate on EMU's/class 90/91 etc) on buckeye stock act as buffers as the buckeye can't take compression forces. It also acts as a damper giving better ride.

Spring loading a scissor gangway would do nothing as it would still need to be clamped to the other coach.
 
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AndyW33

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Most GWR/LMS gangway stock was fitted with adaptors in the late 40's so they could connect LNER & Southern stock during wartime and later for Mk1's.

If I remember right, the buffers have to be in the "short" position on the buckeye vehicle and the screw coupling tightened till the side buffers touched so as not to overstretch the scissor gangway.

If the coach did not have an adaptor fitted then both gangways had to be locked out of use with the buffers on the buckeye coach in the "long" position.

I think "most" is quite an exaggeration in terms of GWR/LMS gangwayed stock being fitted with adapters. Stock used on trains that interworked with LNER/SR stock gained adapters at the end of the coach that needed to couple to the "foreign" coaches. As Mk1s came into service more pre-nationalisation design stock was adapter fitted, but since the adapters were removable rather than permanently fixed carriage depots could make sure that adjacent coaches could couple when preparing trains for the days work.
It was for unplanned changes to workings that the "lock the gangway doors" rule became necessary, when coaches were knocked out of or added to sets at the last minute, and there was no adapter available or nobody to fit or remove it.
They didn't always remember to lock the doors either - I've crossed one of these gaps on a moving train, and it was interesting to say the least!
 

D1009

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Yes, 101685 'Daisy' was the BR green set, I've some slides taken of her during her last days of service out of Piccadilly, sadly never managed to travel on her though, pretty certain it went into preservation but can't think where.
Wasn't there one in Strathclyde orange quite near the end as well?
 

clagmonster

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Wasn't there one in Strathclyde orange quite near the end as well?
Quite a few Corkerhill ones were transferred south as the Scots finished with them before Longsite did. None were repainted out of there Scotish livery, all were orange apart from one which was in a special Caledonian blue livery.

The green one was such from around the early 90s, it also had a centre car which was used in summer, predominantly in North Wales. There was also a three car Regional Railways set, which also only had the centre car in summer.
 

tom1649

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FNW also had set L840 which was in Network SouthEast livery and had declassified first class. I rode it to Blaneau Ffestiniog in 2000/2001.
 
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Ash Bridge

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FNW also had set L840 which was in Network SouthEast livery and had declassified first class. I rode it to Blaneau Ffestiniog in 2000/2001.

I too rode it from Ashley to Stockport one evening back in 1998 or 99, had the former first class compartment to myself, those big soft sprung armchairs were so comfortable :)
 

snakeeyes

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I helped out at the Strathspey Railway in the early 1980's when a BR crew came down form Inverness TMD and removed a gangway, I think It was from a Gresley LNER coach for use on the observation saloon for the Kyle line.
 

Taunton

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There were several factors that prevent the insertion of BR Mk 1 hauled stock into a dmu formation with the gangways connected, these are :

- Incompatible gangways
- Vacuum pipes
- Multiple unit controls

The gangways are well described above. Class 101 and similar dmus used the simpler, older type gangways, whereas Mk 1 stock used "Pullman" gangways. These had indeed originally appeared on Pullman cars pre-war, as they gave a decidedly more weatherproof and less intimidating connection without the view of the ballast flashing past below, but had spread to SR and LNER stock. You can actually connect the two types using adapter plates, providing you have any to hand, which can be a bit of a palaver to install. This didn't particularly matter if you tagged the coach on the back, behind the rear driving compartment, with its gangway locked.

Mk 1 stock had a standard vacuum brake pipe, whereas dmus typically had a second pipe which was used as a "quick release". This prevents inserting the coach in the middle of the formation as the dmu brakes to the rear would not work well. However, a vacuum vehicle on the back of the formation with only the main pipe connected does work, albeit taking longer to release.

The MU control connections for throttle, engine starting, reversing direction, etc, are an absolute no-no for inserting a non-MU vehicle in the middle. The best known was the "Blue Square" system, although the others are mostly variations on this theme. Lack of these controls however doesn't matter if your extra coach is attached at the back of the formation, although this then becomes a real nuisance and requires shunting at the end of the trip.

Done often? Well it was more so in early dmu days, then seemed to die out, in no small part because the always poor power/weight ratio became worse with an extra unpowered vehicle, and Mk 1 hauled stock was much heavier than dmu cars which used lightweight construction techniques. The WR seems to have been more into it than most; when the Birmingham Snow Hill-Hereford-Cardiff service went over to Cross Country dmus it was common to have a 6-car formation (four motor cars) and attach an extra coach on the back. Still must have been a grind up through Malvern, and they normally used an ex-GWR corridor coach, that were lighter than the BR Mk 1. The WR then did a bit more, and converted several ex-GWR corridor coaches to proper mid-DMU trailers, with all the connections described above installed properly. They had done this previously with coaches inserted into the twin-sets of the original GWR diesel railcars of the 1940s. Much later the Western took some surplus dmu power cars, stripped the seats out, and inserted a GUV (again properly converted) in the middle, using them on parcels and mail operations - which occasionally might multiple with normal passenger dmus.
 

dubscottie

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I helped out at the Strathspey Railway in the early 1980's when a BR crew came down form Inverness TMD and removed a gangway, I think It was from a Gresley LNER coach for use on the observation saloon for the Kyle line.

The 101 DTC used on the Kyle line retained its dmu gangway. In Barry now.

And I stand by my comment that most stanier stock was permanently fitted with adapters. Pics to follow.

Class 101's were light weight (LW) so always had to towed at the end of a rake otherwise the body would distort.

The SDR/WSR and Dartmouth railways all used DMU coaches but all were "heavy weight".. Steel in other words.
 
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