Can Mk1 and Mk3 coaches couple to each other?

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Tom williams

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Hi all,

Got a question that's been going round and round in my head, it's as follows:
Is it possible to couple a BR MK1 Coach to a MK3 coach?

Tom
 
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43096

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Hi all,

Got a question that's been going round and round in my head, it's as follows:
Is it possible to couple a BR MK1 Coach to a MK3 coach?

Tom
Yes. They did work together for many years on the West Coast with Mark 1 BGs and catering cars working with Mark 3s.

If you want them to work together it's preferable to have the Mark 1 air-braked and ETH fitted, though!
 

fgwrich

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I think Mr Hoskins private set shows that you can couple a Mk3 to a Mk1, A Mk2 and /or a 1920s built Pullman Coach if you so wish!
 
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Journeyman

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Yes. They did work together for many years on the West Coast with Mark 1 BGs and catering cars working with Mark 3s.

If you want them to work together it's preferable to have the Mark 1 air-braked and ETH fitted, though!
Indeed. Mark 1s and early Mark 2s were vacuum braked and steam heated when first built, so those were incompatible with Mark 3s, but any air braked and electric heated Mark 1, 2 and 3 vehicles could run together. Many Mark 1s were suitably equipped later.

For many years, WCML Mark 3 sets included Mark 1 catering and brake vehicles. The former were replaced by converted Mark 3 vehicles in the late 80s when BR introduced modular catering, and the latter, Mark 1 full brakes, were replaced by DVTs when push-pull operation was introduced.
 

jopsuk

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All that compatibility allowed the initial build (Mark 3A) of loco hauled coaches to include no brake vehicles at all- as there were plenty of Mark 1 and Mark 2 around. There were though three Mark 3B brake vehicles (in addition to the DVTs, which have the same function), now in service with the Nigh Riviera fleet- what services were those built for and why weren't they DVTs?
 

HamworthyGoods

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All that compatibility allowed the initial build (Mark 3A) of loco hauled coaches to include no brake vehicles at all- as there were plenty of Mark 1 and Mark 2 around. There were though three Mark 3B brake vehicles (in addition to the DVTs, which have the same function), now in service with the Nigh Riviera fleet- what services were those built for and why weren't they DVTs?

The 3 x mk3 BFOs were built for the Clansman - Euston to/from Inverness.
 

Journeyman

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The 3 x mk3 BFOs were built for the Clansman - Euston to/from Inverness.
No, it was the Manchester Pullman.
All that compatibility allowed the initial build (Mark 3A) of loco hauled coaches to include no brake vehicles at all- as there were plenty of Mark 1 and Mark 2 around. There were though three Mark 3B brake vehicles (in addition to the DVTs, which have the same function), now in service with the Nigh Riviera fleet- what services were those built for and why weren't they DVTs?
The BFOs appeared a few years before the DVTs, so before push-pull operation commenced.
 

JonathanH

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No, it was the Manchester Pullman.

The BFOs appeared a few years before the DVTs, so before push-pull operation commenced.
There appears to be previous debate about it. I certainly read that the point of the BFOs was to allow the Manchester Pullman to be fully formed of Mark 3 vehicles, before the DVTs were built.

However, it made sense to use the BFOs on the Clansman as, at one point, it split for Glasgow and this avoided the need for two full brake vans.

This post suggests that in 1986 the BFO was being used on the Glasgow portion of the Clansman.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/did-mk2s-mk3s-ever-run-together.184315/#post-4058158

This post suggests that the BFOs were used on the Manchester Pullman later.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-coast-mk2-formations.69019/#post-1162120

Part of the confusion possibly stems from the fact that the Mark 3B FOs were built for the Manchester Pullman and carried names. The BFOs were built at the same time.

A thread from Twitter (which I can't easily copy) has a list of names and suggests that a BFO was used on a Birmingham Pullman service and then the Royal Scot.
 
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HamworthyGoods

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No, it was the Manchester Pullman.

The BFOs appeared a few years before the DVTs, so before push-pull operation commenced.
The mk3b FOs were built for the Manchester Pullman.

The mk3b BFOs although built at the same time were for the Clansman Portion, they did however later on land up in the Longsight sets.
 

coppercapped

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Hi all,

Got a question that's been going round and round in my head, it's as follows:
Is it possible to couple a BR MK1 Coach to a MK3 coach?

Tom
The simple answer is 'yes'!

Both Marks were fitted with drop-head Buckeye couplers (except the Mark 3s used in the HSTs), retractable side buffers (the HST stock has no side buffers) and Pullman gangways. They could all couple together mechanically - and also with the Mark 2 coaches which have the same mechanical interface.

The differences were in in braking (air or vacuum) and heating systems (steam or electric) which made universal compatibility difficult.
 

hexagon789

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The 3 x mk3 BFOs were built for the Clansman - Euston to/from Inverness.
They never ran as the Inverness portion rather the Glasgow portion, and they were not built especially for it. In 1986, for one timetable period The Clansman ran as a 110mph Glasgow service direct and not via Birmingham, as The Clansman traditionally went, with an Inverness portion detached at Carstairs. The Glasgow portion had a FO and a BFO, the Inverness an FO only.

The mk3b FOs were built for the Manchester Pullman.
Again, not specifically. Certainly when new they did not run in the Pullman sets. They were built as 125mph brakes for the HST-E project, 3 Mk3B FOs on order were changed to BFO specifically for this purpose.


There appears to be previous debate about it. I certainly read that the point of the BFOs was to allow the Manchester Pullman to be fully formed of Mark 3 vehicles, before the DVTs were built.
Not quite, they were built for the HST-E project. They however found themselves in a variety of uses, one of which was in the Manchester Pullman sets but that was a few years after they entered service (some 16 months late as I recall).


This post suggests that in 1986 the BFO was being used on the Glasgow portion of the Clansman.
Correct, but only for that year. From 1987 The Clansman reverted to Mk2 stock, ran via Birmingham again and now ran to Edinburgh from Carstairs before then going to Inverness.

Didn't the Mk3 sleeper formations have Mk 1 BGs at one time?
Yes, ScotRail even had one as a spare to the BuO conversions until about 2005 or 2006.

Hi all,

Got a question that's been going round and round in my head, it's as follows:
Is it possible to couple a BR MK1 Coach to a MK3 coach?

Tom
You can couple any of Mk1, Mk2 and Mk3 they all have drophead buckeyes.a

Mk4 and Mk5s are not nominally compatible with either each other or older types, but you could theoretically couple a Mk4 to a Mk1-Mk3 at the outer end of a set as the Mk4s have a buckeye at the outer end of the TSOE but it would never happen in service.
 

47827

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Here is a page on this forum with 2 pictures of the Clansman during periods mk3 stock featured with Mk1 catering and/or BG vehicles in transit.


Interesting search on Google barely found a mk3 in sight on the Clansman, although I know they had a few stints regularly, and it was predominantly a mixture of Mk2 types will a lot of air cons. In 1992 in the final months one picture on Flickr found 47541 with a mixture of air con mk2s and mk1s, including multiple Mk1 TSO stock in Intercity livery which probably got borrowed off the charter unit as by that year it was rarely used away from the NSE area and generally not on timetabled IC work and not much beyond that year anywhere full stop except use of BG's on an odd service still and an odd other little thing.
 
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Yes, ScotRail even had one as a spare to the BuO conversions until about 2005 or 2006.
Do you happen to know when the MK1 BG was last used by Scotrail? I'd assume it remained in Intercity colours until the end, but I can't find any photos of it.

Did it ever acquire a Scotrail or a First logo?
 

hexagon789

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Do you happen to know when the MK1 BG was last used by Scotrail? I'd assume it remained in Intercity colours until the end, but I can't find any photos of it.

Did it ever acquire a Scotrail or a First logo?
I think it remained in InterCity Sector. I may be able to get the number tomorrow when I can get at the relevant source.
 

hexagon789

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I could be wrong but I think it was 92940 which is now at the Strathspey railway?
May be, unfortunately I can't find out until tomorrow. I did try my 2004 Platform 5 but no luck.

Perhaps it was 2003 they last had it on their books if it was indeed 92940, the article as I recall was from 2004 and I assumed it was current fleet information but without the article to hand at present I can't check.
 

Journeyman

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May be, unfortunately I can't find out until tomorrow. I did try my 2004 Platform 5 but no luck.

Perhaps it was 2003 they last had it on their books if it was indeed 92940, the article as I recall was from 2004 and I assumed it was current fleet information but without the article to hand at present I can't check.
I've got the 2001 book, and the vehicle is shown as being in IC livery and based at Inverness.
 

Colin1501

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I believe the Mk 3 based Class 442 units could couple to, and work in multiple with, SR Mk 1 units (4-CEP, 4-CIG and 4-VEP), although I'm not sure if this ever happened in practice.
 

43096

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I believe the Mk 3 based Class 442 units could couple to, and work in multiple with, SR Mk 1 units (4-CEP, 4-CIG and 4-VEP), although I'm not sure if this ever happened in practice.
There are differences in the use of the multiple jumper control jumper cables wires which may have prevented them working in multiple.
 

nlogax

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I believe the Mk 3 based Class 442 units could couple to, and work in multiple with, SR Mk 1 units (4-CEP, 4-CIG and 4-VEP), although I'm not sure if this ever happened in practice.

Yes, I believe so and I understand from previous conversations on here that it happened at least once or twice. Hoping that one day I may actually finally see photographic proof of this rare event!
 

CBlue

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believe so and I understand from previous conversations on here that it happened at least once or twice. Hoping that one day I may actually finally see photographic proof of this rare event!
I'd be surprised if they could considering the MK1 stock didn't have power doors or indeed any ability for operating them. Probably ECS movements have happened in the past.
 

Journeyman

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I'd be surprised if they could considering the MK1 stock didn't have power doors or indeed any ability for operating them. Probably ECS movements have happened in the past.
The traction controls would work throughout the train, but you'd have to operate the doors from the 442. The SR 27-way jumpers actually had provision for power door operation, but the 442s were the only trains fitted.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Yes, I believe so and I understand from previous conversations on here that it happened at least once or twice. Hoping that one day I may actually finally see photographic proof of this rare event!
Like this, you mean...?
 

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