can public transport ever recover from COVID-19

[talldave]

About half a dozen in and out each day by the look of it !!

I used to Fly between Cardiff and Edinburgh/Glasgow for a while last year on Flybe.

Embraer 170 hammered up and down in around an hour - way to go - forget M4, M50, M5, M6, M74 , M8 or a tortuous Train Journey.

Did you do hire car or public transport on arrival?

It's the drawn out car hire bit that grates. I think the industry will morph to the car club model. Much better to call up an app, book and get straight into a car.

 

[Ken H]

It’s gambling on an effective vaccine. The fear which has been injected into the population is increasingly making this hard to row back from.

Personally I’m very unhappy that our policy is taking such a gamble. If there isn’t a vaccine within a very short time, for me that’s beginning of 2021, some serious questions need asking about how we go forward.

I think any vaccine will be nearly a year away, because of the testing thats needed.
The drug companies wont supply any vaccine unless governments agree to indemnify them against any claim, so they are not stoo sure about their testing. So there may be some resistance to have the vaccine.
And all the time we have very few deaths or hospitalisations.

 

[Butts]

Did you do hire car or public transport on arrival?

It's the drawn out car hire bit that grates. I think the industry will morph to the car club model. Much better to call up an app, book and get straight into a car.

Both - Bus and Train to Newport

Had a hire car for a month which I used to leave at the Airport when Flying back ready for my return.

 

[geoffk]

There is a distinct possibility that reduced commuting will reduce costs of operating public transport, so this might be beneficial. Season tickets are normally heavily discounted so they don't pay the full cost of trains and crews that do one round trip a day for a peak extra - the same service all day would be fine. Similarly for buses, the "peak vehicle requirement" would be the same all day, making it cheaper to run and timetables more consistent.

My impression is, that for most if not all bus operators, the peak vehicle requirement IS the same all day. The days of large numbers of buses just coming out at peak times are long gone. Moreover, extra running time added to peak journeys at the insistence of the Traffic Commissioner means that peak hour frequency is actually lower than off-peak. Same for rail in the area where I live (Greater Manchester/West Yorkshire) but I guess not in the South-East.

 

[nlogax]

Well, so far this afternoon..

- TfL double decker, temporary max capacity is thirty. All very straightforward, it felt like it was at close to that max for most of the route.

- Picadilly line to LHR. Again, most of the seats taken until the T2&3 stop. Definitely encouraging..

- T5 departures. I'm here now and it's..busy. Not 'normal August busy' but not the travel morgue that I read about in the occasional news story (or dare I say it one or two posts on this forum). Furthermore BA emailed to say my flight was busy and that I should check in my bag for free.

How much of what I'm seeing is a return to some sort of normal demand and how much is due to social distancing measures forcing long lines it's hard to say. But seeing so many people intent on traveling is, I dunno..nice.

 

[baz962]

I'm not seeing much of a difference on Thameslink , on my commute to work. In London however on Lo land , getting v busy. Every trip was busy and even when I finished , the train I handed over was busy at ten pm.

 

[Greybeard33]

In other words, the reality is that this strategy will require the current status quo to endure permanently.

Your preference is presumably a strategy similar to that being pursued in the US and Brazil?

COVID sceptics often cite Sweden as their "poster child", but I see that Swedish Railways is enforcing social distancing on its trains:

As a traveller, you have the responsibility to follow the admonishments in security and order matters from the train crew. If you do not do so, you may be denied boarding or be rejected in accordance with SJ's general terms and conditions of travel. This rule also applies when crew need to provide instructions or admonishment to follow the Public Health Authority's regulations and general advice to avoid the spread of infection.

Social distancing on board

It is still important to keep the distance to your fellow travellers and we are doing our utmost to facilitate social distancing on board our trains. Therefore, we ask you to follow posted signs, only move around in the train when necessary and avoid forming a queue to the on board toilet facilities.

To create more space to be able to keep the distance and travel safer, we have now also decided to further limit the number of available seats on board our bookable trains. A number of seats will not be open for booking to ensure that the train does not get too crowded. The seat map that is available when booking our high-speed trains now easily shows which seats cannot be booked.

Latest info regarding coronavirus and trains – SJ

Find the latest info regarding coronavirus and how it affects our traffic.

www.sj.se

 

[HSTEd]

Your preference is presumably a strategy similar to that being pursued in the US and Brazil?

COVID sceptics often cite Sweden as their "poster child", but I see that Swedish Railways is enforcing social distancing on its trains:

There is a significant gap between Sweden and Brazil/US in strategy terms.
There is probably room for a strategy intermediate between them.

And I would hardly describe US infection rates as catastrophic.

Every single day that the current situation continues destroys utility and destroys lives.
They won't be photogenic old people, but they still have lives that have value.
We must be careful to avoid the position of General McClellan in the US Civil War - refusing to engage the enemy because of the potential for casualties, but taking huge losses from disease due to his inaction.

 

[Butts]

Well, so far this afternoon..

- TfL double decker, temporary max capacity is thirty. All very straightforward, it felt like it was at close to that max for most of the route.

- Picadilly line to LHR. Again, most of the seats taken until the T2&3 stop. Definitely encouraging..

- T5 departures. I'm here now and it's..busy. Not 'normal August busy' but not the travel morgue that I read about in the occasional news story (or dare I say it one or two posts on this forum). Furthermore BA emailed to say my flight was busy and that I should check in my bag for free.

How much of what I'm seeing is a return to some sort of normal demand and how much is due to social distancing measures forcing long lines it's hard to say. But seeing so many people intent on traveling is, I dunno..nice.

Thanks for the heads up, on Thursday I'm off to Venice via Edinburgh and T5 LHR.

Was hoping T5 would be as quiet as EDI/BHX at the weekend.

Have many of the retail outlets/eateries reopened ? - just Smiths and Boots on my last visit.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Are there any aicraft doing that?
There weren't very many before all this started.
Cardiff has quite a good airport. But it's in Bristol.

Had to laugh last week when BBC Wales announced that the Welsh government had added Belgium, Andorra and the Bahamas to the enforced quarantine list.
As if Cardiff, the only international airport in Wales, had flights to any of these places! (Not sure about Belgium).
It turned out the change in policy was UK-wide, just that Wales was introducing it a day earlier than the rest.

What happens at Cardiff airport is in any case not of the slightest interest to anybody in north Wales (except possibly on Anglesey, with its direct flight for AMs).

 

[nlogax]

Thanks for the heads up, on Thursday I'm off to Venice via Edinburgh and T5 LHR.

Was hoping T5 would be as quiet as EDI/BHX at the weekend.

Have many of the retail outlets/eateries reopened ? - just Smiths and Boots on my last visit.

Most of the airside stuff is open, even today. Pret, Starbucks (they close early), Gordon Ramsay, the fish, fizz and caviar bars, the 'Spoons and nearly all the duty free. If you want a BA lounge head toward the South ones as the North lounges have greatly reduced hours. And even then it's at-seat service with a minimal menu ordered via a web page.

 

[Butts]

Most of the airside stuff is open, even today. Pret, Starbucks (they close early), Gordon Ramsay, the fish, fizz and caviar bars, the 'Spoons and nearly all the duty free. If you want a BA lounge head toward the South ones as the North lounges have greatly reduced hours. And even then it's at-seat service with a minimal menu ordered via a web page.

What happens if you have not got a smartphone ?

And more importantly is Alcohol still available ?

 

[nlogax]

What happens if you have not got a smartphone ?

And more importantly is Alcohol still available ?

At the lounge? I'm sure you can just ask. As for alcohol, yes..yes it is

 

[baz962]

I'm not seeing much of a difference on Thameslink , on my commute to work. In London however on Lo land , getting v busy. Every trip was busy and even when I finished , the train I handed over was busy at ten pm.

Posted this earlier today. On way home from work and I'm on a very busy Thameslink train. Absolutely loads of people.

 

[Class 33]

I went down to Weymouth(from Bristol) again on Friday. The trains there and back were very busy, and a number of people were standing. Probably about 30% busier than when I last went down there on Monday 20th July.

 

[squizzler]

It seems there is really positive news about traffic growth returning, and hopefully this is a theme that will be repeated time and again in the next few months.

At the risk of sounding like a moderator, there is one thread I am aware of for people to submit their own traffic reports of trains they took here.

 

[NorthOxonian]

It seems there is really positive news about traffic growth returning, and hopefully this is a theme that will be repeated time and again in the next few months.

At the risk of sounding like a moderator, there is one thread I am aware of for people to submit their own traffic reports of trains they took here.

I've been on a few buses and in the last week or so passenger levels have almost returned to normal off-peak (still much lower in the peaks - in fact the traditional AM peak is probably the quietest time for travel now). That applies to both town and interurban services - previously the former had been busy but the latter quiet, but it seems people are making longer journeys again now.

I'm not posting in that linked thread because I've not yet used any trains - planned to do that on Friday but my plans were foiled. But I suspect train travel has also increased.

 

[squizzler]

I've been on a few buses and in the last week or so passenger levels have almost returned to normal off-peak (still much lower in the peaks - in fact the traditional AM peak is probably the quietest time for travel now).

This corresponds with my own observations here in Jersey - and in common with most bus operators charging the same flat fare throughout the day. There is a much stronger case now to waive peak time charging so that leisure travellers can enjoy an earlier start previously enjoyed by office workers. This measure would in particular benefit the economy of big cities as it would allow leisure travellers to get in earlier should they wish, buy breakfast at their destinations, and generally be spending money for longer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This corresponds with my own observations here in Jersey - and in common with most bus operators charging the same flat fare throughout the day. There is a much stronger case now to waive peak time charging so that leisure travellers can enjoy an earlier start previously enjoyed by office workers. This measure would in particular benefit the economy of big cities as it would allow leisure travellers to get in earlier should they wish, buy breakfast at their destinations, and generally be spending money for longer.

Yes, at the moment I'd be minded to say that TOCs should, as a blanket thing, apply Saturday restrictions on Monday to Friday.

 

[anthony263]

We are finding passenger numbers recovering well in south wales especially around Pontypridd.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

A Train from Haymarket to Falkirk Grahamston with the Guard permanently cocooned in the half carriage 1st Class Section he has cordoned off for his exclusive use.

Complete joke !!!

Agreed but problem is that individual is exposed to potential infection all day long being inside the carriage. Im guessing this is train that the doors can't be operated from the rear cab so the TOC has to resort to this method of working to allow the train to run in the first place.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I'm not seeing much of a difference on Thameslink , on my commute to work. In London however on Lo land , getting v busy. Every trip was busy and even when I finished , the train I handed over was busy at ten pm.

Thameslink on the Southern side still relatively empty is my experience albeit outside of rush hour although the days of having your own coach are long gone on average double figures north of Croydon on most trips.

 

[Justin Smith]

Public transport will not recover to previous levels whilst ever passengers are required to wear face coverings, that's for certain.

 

[squizzler]

Another article on the perceptions of train travel to be found on the Guardian today, and one which is interesting to contrast with the thread leader. Both claim in their own way to be train enthusiasts exasperated by the current situation and the threat to the network.

It would be a tragedy if coronavirus costs us the joys of train travel

When I moved to Harringay in north London eight years ago, its rail connections were key to the appeal. Piccadilly line, Victoria line, Overground, Great Northern, buses coming out of your ears: N4 had it all.

If anything, this has been even handier in the age of Covid. Our three-year-old is a dedicated train fan, and taking a Thermos to Harringay station (eight tracks, no barriers, all outdoors) became a near-daily lockdown outing. So, just as words like “pandemic” entered his lexicon a bit quicker than expected, so too did Azuma and East Coast, Grand Central and Hull Trains, Great Northern and Thameslink.

The description of going to watch the trains with her young son whilst the UK was under 'lockdown' was, it must be said, very poetically written, as with a description of what she found to be the disadvantages of motoring, described thusly:

And just as you don’t quite register until you become a driver how dangerous it is, that your life depends on you and multiple others not losing focus for a second, I also hadn’t quite twigged how isolating it is.

The reader can be excused a little confusion at this point, as she claims not to have used the trains out of concern about this covid thing, yet has just admitted to a sense of her life being in danger in the car, far worse that the likely outcomes of this virus. She then goes out on a limb with an assertion that it is non-opening windows in trains that are to blame:

The key to making all trains safer in the short-term is, plainly, ventilation. Even planes seem to do better when it comes to efficient fresh air circulation. Yet a reintroduction of windows which open on contemporary rolling stock does not appear to be on the agenda. Likewise, close observance of official policy and advice.

How she arrives at the conclusion that planes 'do better when it comes to efficient fresh air circulation' when none of the planes I have been on have opening windows either is left to the reader to deduce. This is not the first time I have come across the myth that air circulation in planes would somehow be better than the same systems on trains despite the limitations of space, weight and having to compress any ambient air that the former have. Unfortunately the public seem all too willing to believe this, and I speculate that this is because the older generation have been conditioned to think that planes are inherently more sophisticated than trains, this prejudice being confirmed in the public imagination by the fact that plane operators are getting away with not applying the same distancing regs.

I was also wondering when the story itself was filed with the paper, since from what I read in the forum, the level of underutilisation of trains described is more consistent with a month ago. Click-bait journalism perhaps? Or have the railways lost their lucrative 'lives-in-north-London and-writes-about-arts-for-the-Guardian' ridership segment for good?

 

[MontyMinerWA]

From the passengers point of view it can only be a good thing the trains are by all accounts less busy at the moment. I can't imagine that anyone likes travelling on a crowded train; I certainly don't.

 

[NorthOxonian]

From the passengers point of view it can only be a good thing the trains are by all accounts less busy at the moment. I can't imagine that anyone likes travelling on a crowded train; I certainly don't.

Obviously I don't enjoy it, but if it wasn't for crowded trains bringing the revenue in, fares on the quieter trains would have to be much dearer.

 

[greyman42]

Public transport will not recover to previous levels whilst ever passengers are required to wear face coverings, that's for certain.

Certainly on longer journeys it won't. Who wants to sit for hours with an uncomfortable mask on. People will go back to using their cars, as they are already doing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the passengers point of view it can only be a good thing the trains are by all accounts less busy at the moment. I can't imagine that anyone likes travelling on a crowded train; I certainly don't.

In terms of "peakiness" it also reduces the cost of operation. If you need the same capacity all day, that is significantly cheaper than if you need more for a couple of hours a day.

Certainly on longer journeys it won't. Who wants to sit for hours with an uncomfortable mask on. People will go back to using their cars, as they are already doing.

I'll admit it's making me drive more and use the train less.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

30-40 years I ago I would have said NO and if the treasury had its way it would tell the DofT that this is all the money thats available so cut your cloth to suit but we are in unusual times. Firstly this country earns its keep off service industries and the best paid are in the professions in glass tower blocks in our cities who pay alot in taxes and can afford to spend it on fancy meals and overpriced beer so they need an enabler to get them back into the office and thats public transport even if its only one day a week. Secondly climate change hasn't gone away and this shows that even a drastic reduction in CO2 emissions is only scratching the service and thus public transport remains a key solution to that problem so there will no long term reduction in capacity resulting from this.

Thats said this is now the time to end the franchise system and reorganise the network to deliver capacity where its needed ie optimise the routes and service patterns to demand and be much more responsive not have multiple operators running over the same routes eating up capacity. This needs a national organisation for inter city routes and devolved administrations/city mayoral offices for local needs all run by concessions aka London Overground model. So to avoid more delay and procrastination NR are best place to coordinate this. Rolling stock needs to be allocated to where its needed not because it was with a particular TOC and nothing more should be scrapped until social distancing is no longer required. RDG need to be ditched with immediate effect they no longer serve a purpose (not that ever did).

Finally all enhancement schemes not in the ground should be paused except platform extensions until a clear understanding of where future passenger and freight demand is. ie maybe more freight onto rails is a better policy to free up road space if social distancing is here to stay. Electrification should be a national initiative applauded by all politicians with NR told just to carry on going North on MML along with setting a goal to ensure all non electrified commuter routes radiating from our cities are electric by 2030.

 

[DB]

I've just had an email from Northern (first for months), which reveals that "At Northern we're ready to welcome you back, and we wanted to let you know what we're doing to keep you safe when you travel with us."

How generous of them to be prepared to welcome us back after months of telling us where to go!

The rest of the email is of course largely filled up with lists of all the cleaning they are doing (there's a first for everything - cleaning was not previously somethng which any of the Northern franchises have had any great belief in), and the inevitable instructions as to what you must do and not do...