can public transport ever recover from COVID-19

[Bletchleyite]

Is it just guidance, the “essential only” rule?

Yes.

Also, isn’t it unlawful to specify that it’s essential only for public transport only, and not with cars, thus discriminating wilfully against those who do not own (or cannot afford) a car.

No, as car ownership is not a protected characteristic, nor is financial means.

 

[james60059]

Is it just guidance, the “essential only” rule?

It is - or was just guidance yes, you can now use public transport for leisure purposes but back at the start of lockdown a lot of TOC's pushed it though as a rule, I believe Northern and TPX were 2 of the worse ones pushing the mantra, and in turn have scared a lot of people off from using trains. 2 people I know who used to commute by train into Birmingham and Leicester now drive the full way instead (one lives in an apartment block next to Hinckley Station, whilst the other is a 10 minute walk away).

 

[yorkie]

Yes, it’s just guidance. Go Ahead North East are actually pushing how safe bus travel is

See my post here:

It would be unlawful for any restriction to apply to public transport specifically.

If they are asking people to make only "essential" journeys by any mode then fair enough (notwithstanding any such arguments over whether such measures are proportionate; that's a whole new topic) but the idea that non-car owners can be subject to additional restrictions compared to car owners is absurd and the fact that anyone is trying to suggest this is absolutely abhorrent.

Anyone who is responsible for this disparity has extremely questionable morals; I'd like to have an argument with them (and it would bes the full argument, not the 5 minute argument ).

Even the disgrace that is Transport for Wales were not actually restricting people at any point, as they divulged in a response to an FOI request. It's just weasel words that some people/organisations of dubious character say to deter people from travelling. While it is disgraceful that these views are expressed as official 'guidance', people have the right to ignore any advice that appears to be imposing unlawful disparities in freedoms between those who rely on public transport and those that don't.

Any attempt to impose unlawful restrictions by authoritarian regimes that promote the interests of wealthier individuals, at the expense of those who use public transport, must be bitterly and robustly opposed.

Yes.

No, as car ownership is not a protected characteristic, nor is financial means.

Not that old chestnut again.

The idea of discriminating against public transport users is so absurd I doubt it's ever cropped up in court before as surely no-one has attempted it.

The Government have never discriminated in this way (at least not in law!) even at the height of the lockdown, and even companies that were the most active in deterring non-"essential" travel agreed that there were no additional restrictions on the use of public transport.

If you want to focus on disability discrimination, then someone who is unable to drive a car would be able to demonstrate they were discriminated against if their only method of transport was public transport, and if the Government was to say they could only make the journey by car. Even our current overly authoritarian Government would not attempt to go down this path!

 

[squizzler]

We have been told over the last month that motoring has grown bak to near normal whereas train ridership remains less than half. Has anybody got any data for different nodes of travel since the recent surge of cases? Motor traffic must be decreasing again, although perhaps not the trains since they are already greatly depressed from normal.

A second wave will provide a rude awakening to those who purchased cars in the belief that they would be all sorted for the new normal. The dealer's promise of mobility independent of the transport system will do you no good if the whole country is "locked down" anyway.

Transport operators describing their customer's travel patterns as reminiscent of those of the immediate post war era. Whilst not mentioned in the article, one of the characteristics of that era was that fewer people owned cars. Perhaps @The Ham was right after all and this new era will precipitate less travel overall, but with a greater proportion of that made by bikes, mass transit and communal cars as they no longer feel able to justify the heavy fixed costs of a car.

It's 'back to the 50s' as day trips replace the UK rail commute
Chair of Network Rail says leisure travel has returned quicker than work travel

Train operators may have to gear up for a 1950s-style future, where the biggest passenger demand is for summer day trips to the seaside rather than the morning commute to the office, industry bosses have suggested, as leisure travel is growing faster than the return to work.

Rail firms have reported far busier weekend services and crowding on coastal routes, while London commuter trains remain largely empty.

The chair of Network Rail, Sir Peter Hendy, said: “Leisure travel has returned quicker than work travel … A scenario we might have in our heads is going back to the 1950s, when maximum traffic was on summer Saturdays rather than weekday peak hours.”

(...Article continues)

 

[DB]

A second wave will provide a rude awakening to those who purchased cars in the belief that they would be all sorted for the new normal. The dealer's promise of mobility independent of the transport system will do you no good if the whole country is "locked down" anyway.

Sorry, but that's not true. Any lockdown will be way shorter that the period of paranoia and general hostility from transport operators, and the cars will still be usable for work and other necessary journeys whatever the public transport system does.

I also expect a much lower rate of compliance if there is another lockdown, and those eith cars will find it much easier to do as they wish.

 

[telstarbox]

We have been told over the last month that motoring has grown bak to near normal whereas train ridership remains less than half. Has anybody got any data for different nodes of travel since the recent surge of cases? Motor traffic must be decreasing again, although perhaps not the trains since they are already greatly depressed from normal.

A second wave will provide a rude awakening to those who purchased cars in the belief that they would be all sorted for the new normal. The dealer's promise of mobility independent of the transport system will do you no good if the whole country is "locked down" anyway.

Transport operators describing their customer's travel patterns as reminiscent of those of the immediate post war era. Whilst not mentioned in the article, one of the characteristics of that era was that fewer people owned cars. Perhaps @The Ham was right after all and this new era will precipitate less travel overall, but with a greater proportion of that made by bikes, mass transit and communal cars as they no longer feel able to justify the heavy fixed costs of a car.

See here (it's in the ODS spreadsheet file)

Daily domestic transport use by mode

Daily usage of selected domestic transport by mode for Great Britain

www.gov.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, but that's not true. Any lockdown will be way shorter that the period of paranoia and general hostility from transport operators, and the cars will still be usable for work and other necessary journeys whatever the public transport system does.

I also expect a much lower rate of compliance if there is another lockdown, and those eith cars will find it much easier to do as they wish.

Now we have established that spread outdoors when distanced from others is negligible, a ban on movement by car is unlikely. You'll still be able to go hillwalking by car because there's really no reason to ban it.

 

[DB]

Now we have established that spread outdoors when distanced from others is negligible, a ban on movement by car is unlikely. You'll still be able to go hillwalking by car because there's really no reason to ban it.

Logically that's true - but logic is frequently in short supply with this government.

 

[yorksrob]

We have been told over the last month that motoring has grown bak to near normal whereas train ridership remains less than half. Has anybody got any data for different nodes of travel since the recent surge of cases? Motor traffic must be decreasing again, although perhaps not the trains since they are already greatly depressed from normal.

A second wave will provide a rude awakening to those who purchased cars in the belief that they would be all sorted for the new normal. The dealer's promise of mobility independent of the transport system will do you no good if the whole country is "locked down" anyway.

Transport operators describing their customer's travel patterns as reminiscent of those of the immediate post war era. Whilst not mentioned in the article, one of the characteristics of that era was that fewer people owned cars. Perhaps @The Ham was right after all and this new era will precipitate less travel overall, but with a greater proportion of that made by bikes, mass transit and communal cars as they no longer feel able to justify the heavy fixed costs of a car.

Can we have 1950's style trains back, with slam doors and compartment carriages please !

 

[Jamesrob637]

Can we have 1950's style trains back, with slam doors and compartment carriages please !

They still do in some countries!

 

[Ianno87]

You'll still be able to go hillwalking by car because there's really no reason to ban it.

Well, until the pre-Lockdown scenes in Snowdonia, the Lakes and Peak District materialise again.

 

[The Ham]

Now we have established that spread outdoors when distanced from others is negligible, a ban on movement by car is unlikely. You'll still be able to go hillwalking by car because there's really no reason to ban it.

Unless there's very high rates of infection in an area, and then a limit on movement might be beneficial. However probably at a level of >0.5% of the population having a positive result in a week.

To put that into persective if you meet 200 people statically one of them would have had a positive result in the last seven days, however to get to that point 1.3% of the population would have tested positive in the last month assuming each case produces 1.5 more cases and going forwards you're going to hit some fairly significant numbers fairly quickly.

 

[Jozhua]

On my trip today, both trains were about 50-60% full, which for the times I was travelling seems about right. Incidentally, proper mask usage was at about 75-80%.

Things are getting busier again, at least on regional routes and for leasure. Ticket barriers are also in operation again, so we'll probably see a change in numbers soon.

TOCs have given up on two meters at all times and most passengers are happy to sit up to capacity.

 

[radamfi]

How full are trains and buses in other countries compared to before March?

 

[Richard Scott]

How full are trains and buses in other countries compared to before March?

Went to Germany last month and trains and buses seemed normal loadings although a few long distance trains may have been lighter loadings than usual.

 

[Megafuss]

I aware of one bus operator which is still only at 30-40% of the passenger levels this time last year. They aren't running a pre covid service either. The company I work for is at 55-65% and growing, a full service has been restored. It's anecdotal, but I think people will return if you give them the service.

 

[birchesgreen]

Some of the Merseyrail trains i was on yesterday were close to standing room only.

 

[Class 33]

Public transport definitely recovering well over the past couple of months. But of course if we have this full national lockdown again which is looking highly likely, all this is going to go backwards again for weeks or even months on end.

 

[317 forever]

Is it just guidance, the “essential only” rule?

Also, isn’t it unlawful to specify that it’s essential only for public transport only, and not with cars, thus discriminating wilfully against those who do not own (or cannot afford) a car.

If in doubt we can check the gov.uk or appropriate websites for clarity. If it merely states words to the effect that residents are asked to avoid public transport for non-essential purposes, then this is not banning it for anyone.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I aware of one bus operator which is still only at 30-40% of the passenger levels this time last year. They aren't running a pre covid service either. The company I work for is at 55-65% and growing, a full service has been restored. It's anecdotal, but I think people will return if you give them the service.

Try telling the railway companies this!

 

[Bikeman78]

Covid: Jobs threat at Cardiff Bus after passenger slump

More than 130 posts could be axed from the council-owned firm because of the impact of coronavirus.

www.bbc.co.uk

Cardiff Bus looking at laying off 20% of its workforce.

 

[westv]

O

I aware of one bus operator which is still only at 30-40% of the passenger levels this time last year. They aren't running a pre covid service either. The company I work for is at 55-65% and growing, a full service has been restored. It's anecdotal, but I think people will return if you give them the service.

Our bus services are leaving people behind because they are "full" due to "social distancing"

 

[Cowley]

O
Our bus services are leaving people behind because they are "full" due to "social distancing"

Yep I’ve just had to drive my daughter into town because she couldn’t get on a bus and needed to get to work.
Our two that are at college just walk in rather than get the bus now.

 

[Mojo]

Even at the present time looking forward for leisure journeys, we have recently seen the end of fee-free ticket refunds, yet the government is making noises about taking away even more of our freedoms. Why would anyone take the risk in booking an Advance ticket right now?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even at the present time looking forward for leisure journeys, we have recently seen the end of fee-free ticket refunds, get the government is making noises about taking away even more of our freedoms. Why would anyone take the risk in booking an Advance ticket right now?

I barely use them anyway, but indeed, the market has near gone. The Government is probably happy with this as other than some purchased on the day people are probably largely paying walk-up fares, which would slightly offset the losses from fewer passengers travelling.

 

[hwl]

TfL stats to Sunday 13th September capturing back to school but more non school age parents typically on holiday (not sure about this year?):

Bus 60% (+5% on previous week, +18% on 4 weeks earlier)

Tube 35% (+1% on previous week, +10% on 4 weeks earlier)

 

[Bikeman78]

O
Our bus services are leaving people behind because they are "full" due to "social distancing"

Yes, further to my post about Cardiff Bus, I've seen two this morning with "bus full" on the front. Bizarrely one of them did stop to pick someone up.

 

[Mojo]

London buses have a sign in the front window that displays “bus full” and is blank on the other side. In my experience about 3 in every 4 buses has the sign displaying “bus full” showing forward, but the drivers always seem to stop.

 

[Darandio]

Our bus services are leaving people behind because they are "full" due to "social distancing"

I'm seeing this every day now, four buses passed as I walked the little one to school this morning and all were displaying it on the front. But just like every other morning they weren't full at all, 4-5 rows at the back completely empty again on two of them, 9 or 10 people at most on the other two. When I see an elderly lady at the local hospital bus stop shuffle forward only for a bus to sail past when it isn't even full, that is starting to get to me.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Went to Germany last month and trains and buses seemed normal loadings although a few long distance trains may have been lighter loadings than usual.

That's because Deutsche Bahn isn't running silly COVID/enhanced COVID timetables now - they're more or less back to full frequency.