Can revenue protection staff overrule a guard showing discretion? (GWR specifically)

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notadriver

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I've just been informed that revenue protection staff are able to overrule a guards discretion regarding for example first class upgrades and other ticketing issues. Is this true ?


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Deepgreen

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I've just been informed that revenue protection staff are able to overrule a guards discretion regarding for example first class upgrades and other ticketing issues. Is this true ?


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Interesting - I don't know the answer, but, as a passenger, I would expect the railway to abide by the decision of the first person in authority to have exercised the discretion. If, for example, the guard says "sit in first class because standard is very full", I would not expect anyone else to then take the passenger to task over it.
 

LowLevel

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I've just been informed that revenue protection staff are able to overrule a guards discretion regarding for example first class upgrades and other ticketing issues. Is this true ?


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Not really no. The railway byelaws referencing tickets do not allow someone to be prosecuted when an authorised person (which the guard is) has authorised them to be non compliant. If the passenger decided to play hard ball they are consequently toothless.
 

Barn

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Controversial question. The general rule is that a member of staff cannot waive the conditions of contract (NRCOC condition 58).

However, there is a right to use first class accommodation on a standard class ticket if standard class is full and on-train staff have given permission (NRCOC condition 39). If you have received that permission then there is no breach of the conditions and nothing for the revenue protection staff to enforce. Staff permisson can also be a factor as to whether a penalty fare may be charged.
 

Bushy

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Its 18 months since I have travelled regularly during peak hours, but on SouthEastern the conductor would announce first class as declassified and compensation given to passengers with first class tickets, when a train was overcrowded. The compensation could be claimed at the destination station, so presumably the decision was made or communicated beyond the train.
 

bb21

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As LowLevel said, a guard is an authorised person, and if he gave permission, the RPI cannot overrule him.

I would also imagine that should the RPI attempt that, he will be roundly told where to go.
 

notadriver

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Can any GWR guard verify ? The information I was given was that as part of the last pay deal RPIs can on GWR overrule conductors discretion. I found it somewhat odd I must admit.


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hairyhandedfool

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Regardless of what GWR have agreed with their staff, a passenger has the rights contained within the NRCoC.
 

father_jack

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There is though still a situation where unless say known "evasion" is going on that the TM/guard is in charge of the train.
 

Agent_c

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Could a guard potentially put a RPI who was too big for his boots off the train? Would be a fun conversation...
 

bb21

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Could a guard potentially put a RPI who was too big for his boots off the train? Would be a fun conversation...

Yes, most undoubtedly, and I believe it has happened before.
 

trentside

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Could a guard potentially put a RPI who was too big for his boots off the train? Would be a fun conversation...

Absolutely, it's our train at the end of the day.

Personally, I'd attempt diplomacy first. Asking them to come to the back for a word, asking them to tone it down or correct any error they'd made. If that failed I'd ask them to remain in the back until we reach the next suitable point for them to leave.
 

timbo58

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Having been both on GWTC:

A guard can indeed have anyone removed although the only 'on train' RPI's we had in my time were RP Managers (i.e. those authorised as full 'inspectors' with a shiny badge and plain clothes) - management staff with RP training who managed all the gate staff and the travelling RPIs who did blocks at smaller/random stations.

Most guards in those times positively relished an RPM joining them since they'd get help with ticket checks (bearing in mind GW had done away with ATEs -assistant ticket examiners -some time before).
I never heard of an RPM being asked to leave the train but I'm sure it happened elsewhere.
I nearly chucked off a particularly lazy trolley steward once!

As an RPM I'd have never tried to overrule a guards/Senior conductors decision but may well have questioned them as to why they made a decision and if it was a repeated and crap decision would have reported them for it.

As others have said quite rightly -customers need to have fair consistent treatment, one guard being too lacksadaisical to manage their train properly will impact on others when they try to do their job properly!

Most professional ticketing staff know full well they may be made to account for any decision they make by management staff and also know they wouldn't be able to hoodwink RP managers into their interpretation of the byelaws etc so they will only make decisions that can be justified if necessary.
 

Sprinter153

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My job description states I should actively manage and develop the performance of, and be responsible for, staff working on my service. I am essentially accountable for the actions of the staff on my train.

As such, I have the final word over any such issues. However, if I do show discretion I will stamp the ticket and give a written explanation backed up with my work telephone number. That way, if anyone does encounter any issues, the member of staff can contact me and discuss it, and if it does go to prosecution or a penalty fare matter, it is in writing what decision I have made.
 

Flamingo

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I've just been informed that revenue protection staff are able to overrule a guards discretion regarding for example first class upgrades and other ticketing issues. Is this true ?


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I would need a LOT more information about a scenario before being able to answer this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can any GWR guard verify ? The information I was given was that as part of the last pay deal RPIs can on GWR overrule conductors discretion. I found it somewhat odd I must admit.


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First I have heard of this - I find it highly unlikely, simply because it is a very unusual thing to have as part of pay negotiations - it's not an issue I could see either side careing that much about, and it's not really something that would be relevant.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Could a guard potentially put a RPI who was too big for his boots off the train? Would be a fun conversation...

Potentially - but in the unlikely event of actually having an RPI on my train, I would want to keep them on it, if only out of curiosity... (I average one train a year with an RPI on it!).
 
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