Can/should TOCs notify service alterations via NRE?

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BRX

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I'm in the middle of a bit of a dispute with Southern Trains.

Basically this relates to an incident where I and others wanted to take bikes on the train to return home after a cycle ride. Unfortunately this coincided with the London-Brighton cycle ride and for that day Southern had a one-off policy which disallowed bikes on their trains within a wide area around Brighton (we were trying to board at Shoreham). This caused us a load of hassle trying to get back home.

We hadn't been aware that the London-Brighton was happening that day, and we'd checked on NRE before setting off that there weren't any service alterations on the trains we'd need to take back home. I consider that as taking a reasonable measure to plan our journey with the bikes. There was nothing on NRE about this one-day restriction. The section on NRE about southern's "cycle policy" didn't mention anything, just the standard peak restrictions etc.

Southern are telling me that the restrictions were mentioned on their website and they consider that to be enough. I say that it should have been on NRE (just like, for example, engineering works are).

Southern say:

If the information is not displayed on National Rails website which you chose to check rather than the actual train operator who was displaying the information we are not responsible for this so we did not fail to do anything. We have no control over what National Rail chose to display on their website.

Is this true?

I remember checking trains a few weeks ago (I'm pretty sure on NRE) and getting a notification that certain stations may be busy due to the Olympic torch relay...so it seems that the system is entirely capable of displaying such information.
 
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cjohnson

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It's possible for there to be a disconnect between what the TOC says and what NRE says - it's the wonderful world of this country's fragmented railway system! :D
A few years back I noticed NRE were showing engineering works on some SWT line, but SWT's site said that the planned engineering work had been cancelled. After calling up NRE the helpful operator double checked and NRE's website was corrected within the hour.
 

tsr

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I'm afraid it seems you should have checked with the TOC - in this case, Southern, of course. I refer specifically to what is implied by Condition 48 of Section II of the NRCoC:

48. Cycles
Except for a few routes, the Train Companies allow cycles to be conveyed by train. However, restrictions may apply at particular times of day and/or days of the week. Any restrictions will be set out in the notices and publications of each Train Company. A charge may be made for conveying a cycle and a reservation may be required.

NRE is not a TOC, so you cannot rely on them to provide information for a TOC. They do in many cases, and are perfectly capable of doing so; however, whether or not they have a contractual burden to do inform you, you still need to check with the TOC about cycle restrictions.
 

BRX

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Hm - I can see that that bit from NRCoC does imply that you have to check with the TOC. Which means that if you are planning a journey with several changes you would have to check through several several websites individually.

Thing is I've just had a look at Southern's website. Here's their cycle policy page. It seems reasonable to assume that anything affecting cyclists would be notified there. But I happened to notice elsewhere on their website this talking about restrictions applying to another London-Coast bike ride...but it's not mentioned in their cycle policy page. Their cycle policy page says
we cannot accommodate ordinary cycles on Southern services at these times. This means on trains travelling towards either London or Brighton and due to arrive between 07:00 and 10:00 and trains leaving either London or Brighton between 16:00 and 19:00. Outside of these times, we accommodate ordinary cycles free of charge on our trains and without a prior reservation.

Difficult to say now whether the same applied to their restrictions on the London-Brighton day. If we had looked at their website, gone to the cycle policy page, and it had said the above, then it would seem reasonable to have assumed that we could take bikes on a train on a Sunday.

As for the question of whether Southern could have got an alert put on NRE... sounds like you are saying they could have, in which case what they've said to me in their letter is untrue. Perhaps I should get clarification from NRE.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ctually I've just used the internet archive site wayback machine to see what their website said a week before the date in uestion...and there was nothing on the cycle policy page:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110609232724/http://www.southernrailway.com/your-journey/cycle-policy/
 

cjohnson

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BRX

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That archive page is from 2011.... I recall seeing tweets from Southern about the restrictions before the event around a fortnight ago.

You're right - my mistake. However the fact it wasn't shown there in 2011 makes it likely that the same was true this year.


I don't think they can rely on making tweets to let people planning a journey know about stuff. I'm not on twitter, and even if I was, would it be reasonable to expect me to be following all the UK's TOCs in order to know about stuff like this?

We didn't even start (or finish) our journey in the Southern trains area, neither do any of us regularly use their services.
 

Class377/5

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I'm in the middle of a bit of a dispute with Southern Trains.

Basically this relates to an incident where I and others wanted to take bikes on the train to return home after a cycle ride. Unfortunately this coincided with the London-Brighton cycle ride and for that day Southern had a one-off policy which disallowed bikes on their trains within a wide area around Brighton (we were trying to board at Shoreham). This caused us a load of hassle trying to get back home.

We hadn't been aware that the London-Brighton was happening that day, and we'd checked on NRE before setting off that there weren't any service alterations on the trains we'd need to take back home. I consider that as taking a reasonable measure to plan our journey with the bikes. There was nothing on NRE about this one-day restriction. The section on NRE about southern's "cycle policy" didn't mention anything, just the standard peak restrictions etc.

Southern are telling me that the restrictions were mentioned on their website and they consider that to be enough. I say that it should have been on NRE (just like, for example, engineering works are).

Southern say:

Is this true?

I remember checking trains a few weeks ago (I'm pretty sure on NRE) and getting a notification that certain stations may be busy due to the Olympic torch relay...so it seems that the system is entirely capable of displaying such information.

As someone inside a TOC who deals with information giving out I'd never ever recommend going to NRE website. It's fine for generally checking but I've always found it to be off the mark.

Basically NRE get the information from the TOC's then edit it then sent I out to the public with (quite often) different timescales. There has been issues with bugs and false information on the site that doesn't appear to have been generated by anyone.

Bottom line is always check your TOC or TOC's websites prior to leaving as this will contain information given from their control Center, not an office that actually have little or no contact with the operational railway.
 

BRX

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As someone inside a TOC who deals with information giving out I'd never ever recommend going to NRE website. It's fine for generally checking but I've always found it to be off the mark.

Basically NRE get the information from the TOC's then edit it then sent I out to the public with (quite often) different timescales. There has been issues with bugs and false information on the site that doesn't appear to have been generated by anyone.

Bottom line is always check your TOC or TOC's websites prior to leaving as this will contain information given from their control Center, not an office that actually have little or no contact with the operational railway.

Ok - but would you not agree that

1) It's reasonable for a member of the public to assume that the information given on NRE should be correct, given its name and what it says it is on its website:
National Rail Enquiries (NRE) is the definitive source of information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland. NRE is part of the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC), which is responsible for providing business services to the Train Operating Companies.

2) There would be nothing stopping Southern from providing NRE with the information about widespread cycle restrictions applying on a certain day (information which is known well in advance). If NRE fail to pass this on to passengers, and someone has a problem as a result, then at least Southern have done the best that they could have done to get the information out there, and the complaint can be passed on to NRE.

3) It's pretty stupid to have a system where there is a central information source, yet passengers are told that they ought to check the websites of potentially several separate companies before each and every journey they make. Especially as NRE is part of ATOC, which the TOCs are by definition members of.
 
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Helvellyn

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I'm in the middle of a bit of a dispute with Southern Trains.

Basically this relates to an incident where I and others wanted to take bikes on the train to return home after a cycle ride. Unfortunately this coincided with the London-Brighton cycle ride and for that day Southern had a one-off policy which disallowed bikes on their trains within a wide area around Brighton (we were trying to board at Shoreham). This caused us a load of hassle trying to get back home.
How many of there were you in the group? Even if this restriction hadn't been in place, you might not have been able to get on the train if other bike users had used up the available bike capacity. For example, on my compaby (SWT) a 4-car 450 holds 2 bikes (same with a 2-car 158 and 3-car 159) and a 5-car 444 holds 6 bikes, yet you quite often get more people than that wanting to cram their bikes on.
 

rail-britain

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I have to agree, the National Rail website "should" have up to date AND correct information
However, it tends to only provide core information and service (punctuality) information
For any service restrictions you rarely find this, and have no choice but to visit the website of the relevant TOC

I pointed this out to National Rail (ATOC) before, but they weren't interested and agreed it was up to the customer to ensure the travel arrangements they had in place were acceptable

I have pointed out to National Rail that Glasgow Airport (station) still appears, and when entering Glasgow this is the first to appear which is annoying when you are using tab keyboard
 

BRX

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How many of there were you in the group? Even if this restriction hadn't been in place, you might not have been able to get on the train if other bike users had used up the available bike capacity. For example, on my compaby (SWT) a 4-car 450 holds 2 bikes (same with a 2-car 158 and 3-car 159) and a 5-car 444 holds 6 bikes, yet you quite often get more people than that wanting to cram their bikes on.

There were 3 of us. If the train we'd wanted to get on already had loads of bikes we'd have accepted that we would have to wait for the next one if the guard had said so.

But the train was very lightly loaded, and our bikes weren't causing anyone a problem. And we were heading away from the direction of Brighton so it's not like there would suddenly be loads of people wanting to get on further down the line. Nevertheless the guard chucked us off because of the rules (which he said he thought were stupid, but seemed to have no sympathy for us and apparently didn't have any discretion in making such a decision).

By the way I've always found SWT to be very good with bikes. Never had problems with SWT staff.
 

Class377/5

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Ok - but would you not agree that

1) It's reasonable for a member of the public to assume that the information given on NRE should be correct, given its name and what it says it is on its website:

2) There would be nothing stopping Southern from providing NRE with the information about widespread cycle restrictions applying on a certain day (information which is known well in advance). If NRE fail to pass this on to passengers, and someone has a problem as a result, then at least Southern have done the best that they could have done to get the information out there, and the complaint can be passed on to NRE.

3) It's pretty stupid to have a system where there is a central information source, yet passengers are told that they ought to check the websites of potentially several separate companies before each and every journey they make. Especially as NRE is part of ATOC, which the TOCs are by definition members of.

1) Agree, I don't like NRE and always directed passengers to the TOC's website.

2) Er, what makes you think Southern didn't supply the information? You can't blame Southern for what a 3rd party do.

3) It's a pretty stupid set up in general on the railways but that's what you get.

However there are changes coming to the industry with long term projects to change the way information is dealt with and creating a unified information system. Still in the development stage but will make the varies TOC's systems sync up more.

However NRE is separate from the TOC, they get the information from the TOC's then change it to show the public a completely different message. It's something of a sore point but not something that's picked too much up.
 

BRX

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1) Agree, I don't like NRE and always directed passengers to the TOC's website.

2) Er, what makes you think Southern didn't supply the information? You can't blame Southern for what a 3rd party do.

3) It's a pretty stupid set up in general on the railways but that's what you get.

However there are changes coming to the industry with long term projects to change the way information is dealt with and creating a unified information system. Still in the development stage but will make the varies TOC's systems sync up more.

However NRE is separate from the TOC, they get the information from the TOC's then change it to show the public a completely different message. It's something of a sore point but not something that's picked too much up.

2) I don't know whether Southern supplied the information to NRE - their email to me doesn't seem to suggest that they did - but I'm going to clarify this with them. If they say they did, then I will take it up with NRE.
 

rail-britain

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2) I don't know whether Southern supplied the information to NRE - their email to me doesn't seem to suggest that they did - but I'm going to clarify this with them. If they say they did, then I will take it up with NRE.
How odd, as they supplied information to all other external providers on their distribution list
I received two copies
The first was about a night event Sat 26 May
However the second didn't make much sense as the dates were from 2010
I am wondering if National Rail ignored it due to this
 

cuccir

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I think that you could probably make the argument that

National Rail Enquiries (NRE) is the definitive source of information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland.

Is misrepresentation? It does seem like your complaint here might be better directed at NRE than at Southern, although you haven't quite said the nature of your dispute - are you complaining because of the poor service, or are you looking to reclaim extra costs?

Passenger Focus might also be interested in this case, as it seems to be symptomatic of a wider problem, rather than a one off mistake.
 

ralphchadkirk

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I think that you could probably make the argument that



Is misrepresentation?

No, you couldn't. I suggest you look at the terms and conditions:
You should note however that TISL does not warrant that such information will be error free and the user acknowledges that the information, products, and services published or made available on this Web Site may include inaccuracies or typographical errors.
 

BRX

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I think that you could probably make the argument that



Is misrepresentation? It does seem like your complaint here might be better directed at NRE than at Southern, although you haven't quite said the nature of your dispute - are you complaining because of the poor service, or are you looking to reclaim extra costs?

Passenger Focus might also be interested in this case, as it seems to be symptomatic of a wider problem, rather than a one off mistake.



I have two complaints really - the first is about the publication of information, and if Southern tell me that they did send the info to NRE then I'll take it up with them instead. The second is about the way we were treated by Southern staff when we found ourselves in the position we did - in my opinion through no fault of our own.

I will likely get passenger focus involved too because it seems indicative of a general problem.

Although refunds would be nice it's more about the principle. If people don't complain about stuff like this it just gets worse.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No, you couldn't. I suggest you look at the terms and conditions:

That's just a disclaimer to say that sometimes there may be mistakes, as with anything. That's different from a systematic failure to convey information provided by the TOCs, and if that's the case then NRE are indeed misrepresenting what they provide.
 

Jonny

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As an aside, I've heard that with a sufficiently large bag then an item such as a cycle can be turned into ordinary luggage.
 

Frontera2

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As someone inside a TOC who deals with information giving out I'd never ever recommend going to NRE website. It's fine for generally checking but I've always found it to be off the mark.

Basically NRE get the information from the TOC's then edit it then sent I out to the public with (quite often) different timescales. There has been issues with bugs and false information on the site that doesn't appear to have been generated by anyone.

Bottom line is always check your TOC or TOC's websites prior to leaving as this will contain information given from their control Center, not an office that actually have little or no contact with the operational railway.

Care to send me a DM on this and explain more?
 

Atishyou

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As someone inside a TOC who deals with information giving out I'd never ever recommend going to NRE website. It's fine for generally checking but I've always found it to be off the mark.

Basically NRE get the information from the TOC's then edit it then sent I out to the public with (quite often) different timescales. There has been issues with bugs and false information on the site that doesn't appear to have been generated by anyone.

Bottom line is always check your TOC or TOC's websites prior to leaving as this will contain information given from their control Center, not an office that actually have little or no contact with the operational railway.

Why wouldn't you recommend going to the NRE website?

Surely if NRE get the information from the TOCs and edit it, the information from the TOCs must be incorrect in the first place? From what I can see, most of the information that appears on TOC websites appears to feed from NRES - for example, a quick look at East Coast, CrossCountry and NRES website shows the same info for the ECML: http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/travel-information/live-travel-information/ and http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/Travel_updates/All_updates.aspx

What are the bugs and issues? I presume rather than just complain about these, you raised them directly with National Rail Enquiries?

What are NRE's timelines please?

I'm intrigued about your comment regarding an office that has little or no contact with the operational railway - How do you know this? Where is this office based? What hours do the people work (presumambly 9-5 from your comment)? Where do they get their information from? I presume you've been from, what you say? I presume you've raised all this with their owner, ATOC?

I regularly check National Rail website for travel advice etc and if I find anything wrong, a quick tweet to them, phonecall or email and it's changed before you know it.

1) Agree, I don't like NRE and always directed passengers to the TOC's website.

2) Er, what makes you think Southern didn't supply the information? You can't blame Southern for what a 3rd party do.

3) It's a pretty stupid set up in general on the railways but that's what you get.

However there are changes coming to the industry with long term projects to change the way information is dealt with and creating a unified information system. Still in the development stage but will make the varies TOC's systems sync up more.

However NRE is separate from the TOC, they get the information from the TOC's then change it to show the public a completely different message. It's something of a sore point but not something that's picked too much up.

It appears you really have it in for NRE - presume you're a railway dinosaur and don't like change? They provide useful information, particularly on Social Media sites such as Twitter, where it doesn't look like there's much of a presence from most TOCs, particularly out of hours. I see one TOC finishes at 4pm, a few more around 7/8 pm and a few more at 10pm, not returning until about 6 or 8 am.

What makes you sure Southern supplied the information? Can you post proof that this took place? Surely if someone is to be accused, you can post visual proof of an email to so and so from the company concerned requesting the job to be done?

What are the incoming changes?

The TOCs pay into ATOC for NRE from what I gather and NRE turn 'railway speak' into plain English for non-railway jargon folk. I presume your management know you speak in a derogatory manner about a service your company pays for?

How odd, as they supplied information to all other external providers on their distribution list
I received two copies
The first was about a night event Sat 26 May
However the second didn't make much sense as the dates were from 2010
I am wondering if National Rail ignored it due to this

Are NRE on that distribution list? Is it shown in the Carbon Copy I presume?

What needs explaining?

I presume they're after an explanation the same way I am about why you have such a hatred for another company!

I had a run in with someone from a TOC near us. I dislike that person, but I don't dislike that TOC.
 

BRX

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Well, I've written back to Southern asking them to confirm whether or not they passed the relevant information to NRE.
 

Class377/5

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Why wouldn't you recommend going to the NRE website?

Surely if NRE get the information from the TOCs and edit it, the information from the TOCs must be incorrect in the first place? From what I can see, most of the information that appears on TOC websites appears to feed from NRES - for example, a quick look at East Coast, CrossCountry and NRES website shows the same info for the ECML: http://www.eastcoast.co.uk/travel-information/live-travel-information/ and http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/Travel_updates/All_updates.aspx

What are the bugs and issues? I presume rather than just complain about these, you raised them directly with National Rail Enquiries?

What are NRE's timelines please?

I'm intrigued about your comment regarding an office that has little or no contact with the operational railway - How do you know this? Where is this office based? What hours do the people work (presumambly 9-5 from your comment)? Where do they get their information from? I presume you've been from, what you say? I presume you've raised all this with their owner, ATOC?

I regularly check National Rail website for travel advice etc and if I find anything wrong, a quick tweet to them, phonecall or email and it's changed before you know it.

It appears you really have it in for NRE - presume you're a railway dinosaur and don't like change? They provide useful information, particularly on Social Media sites such as Twitter, where it doesn't look like there's much of a presence from most TOCs, particularly out of hours. I see one TOC finishes at 4pm, a few more around 7/8 pm and a few more at 10pm, not returning until about 6 or 8 am.

What makes you sure Southern supplied the information? Can you post proof that this took place? Surely if someone is to be accused, you can post visual proof of an email to so and so from the company concerned requesting the job to be done?

What are the incoming changes?

The TOCs pay into ATOC for NRE from what I gather and NRE turn 'railway speak' into plain English for non-railway jargon folk. I presume your management know you speak in a derogatory manner about a service your company pays for?

Are NRE on that distribution list? Is it shown in the Carbon Copy I presume?

I presume they're after an explanation the same way I am about why you have such a hatred for another company!

I had a run in with someone from a TOC near us. I dislike that person, but I don't dislike that TOC.

You seem to take my points about NRE very personally. I expressed an opinion, which in the case of one NRE staff member PM-ed me was backed up with facts as the NRE website was showing false information at that time. I'll tell you that bugs I find with NRE are reported as I dislike my passengers being given false or incorrect information. And I am talking about what I've seen before happen with them from actual experience.

As for how do I know that NRE has little or no contact with the operational railway? Well my job is in railway operations and I'm the kind of person who gives out the information to all sources through our systems. They may ring me to ask me something maybe one or twice a year. That's how I know.

As for maybe the TOC's info is incorrect? That has to either be justified or your plainly just attacking without reason. A TOC has a much better understanding of what's going on. For example on the route where I work, NRE is not involved in any if our operation areas and gets all its information from messages people like me send out (apart from the occasion call). Now are you telling me that you believe that the NRE staff have better information than me without acce as to most of the systems I use? What crap.

I don't know about NRE timelines as I work on the TOC side, maybe one of the NRE staff members can assist you.

As for a social dinosaur, funny. Out of all the guys I work with I'm the most active on Twitter. I try very hard to ensure that the information we give out is correct and do chat to our teams doing it when I can. I'd like to see more 24 coverage from ourselves following the example of London Midland (who I di chat to actually a fair bit).

By the way I never said Southern sent the information but we received the information from them.

As for the incoming changes, I can't say a lot as its still in the development phase but money (and lots of it) is being invested to make sure the information systems both internal to a TOC and between them are better. Joined up thinking which means there is one statement which followed through in all information. This has to be better than differing reasons for the same issues as can happen now.

I know for a fact my company and NR monitor this very forum actively. I know because it's been discussed with me before.

As for are NRE on the list? You mean mine for information? Yes they are on the stuff I sent out because in the rare calls I've received from them they have questioned what I've put.

As for mentioning you've had a run in with someone from a TOC, I presume this is the reason why your hostile to me then?

I'd like to add that I don't dislike NRE staff, in fact they are good people from what contact I've had with them. What I don't like is some of the information they put out is wrong. I don't hate NRE, what would be the point of that?
 

Atishyou

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Apologies, it won't let me quote your post for some reason (suggestions?)
You seem to take my points about NRE very personally. I expressed an opinion, which in the case of one NRE staff member PM-ed me was backed up with facts as the NRE website was showing false information at that time. I'll tell you that bugs I find with NRE are reported as I dislike my passengers being given false or incorrect information. And I am talking about what I've seen before happen with them from actual experience.

Nope, not taken personally, from your post, it appeared you had a severe dislike for NRE and I was intrigued to know why - what sort of bugs were they? I only ask, as our team have never had any issues and I can advise my colleagues to check the info they send out
As for how do I know that NRE has little or no contact with the operational railway? Well my job is in railway operations and I'm the kind of person who gives out the information to all sources through our systems. They may ring me to ask me something maybe one or twice a year. That's how I know.

Might be worth checking who they have contact with before making a statement, I know someone who knows someone who knows someone sort of thing, but they advise me that NRE are in constant contact with controls, stations and Network Rail
As for maybe the TOC's info is incorrect? That has to either be justified or your plainly just attacking without reason. A TOC has a much better understanding of what's going on. For example on the route where I work, NRE is not involved in any if our operation areas and gets all its information from messages people like me send out (apart from the occasion call). Now are you telling me that you believe that the NRE staff have better information than me without acce as to most of the systems I use? What crap.

I'm not attacking and if you're not supporting your argument (e.g. bugs etc) then I will also refrain from doing so.
I don't know about NRE timelines as I work on the TOC side, maybe one of the NRE staff members can assist you.

I'd suggest if you're not aware of them that you don't quote them (you say 'often to different timescales' - if you cannot support this (as you're asking me to do), then I'd suggest a rephrase
As for a social dinosaur, funny. Out of all the guys I work with I'm the most active on Twitter. I try very hard to ensure that the information we give out is correct and do chat to our teams doing it when I can. I'd like to see more 24 coverage from ourselves following the example of London Midland (who I di chat to actually a fair bit).

That's good to hear
By the way I never said Southern sent the information but we received the information from them.

Also good to hear - that wouldn't mean NRE received it I'd presume though, but that wouldn't mean then didn't (totally speculating here as I don't have anyone there to check with)
As for the incoming changes, I can't say a lot as its still in the development phase but money (and lots of it) is being invested to make sure the information systems both internal to a TOC and between them are better. Joined up thinking which means there is one statement which followed through in all information. This has to be better than differing reasons for the same issues as can happen now.

Sounds interesting. Is this within your TOC or will it be industry wide?
I know for a fact my company and NR monitor this very forum actively. I know because it's been discussed with me before.

Yes, my company do too, but can't comment on NRE, I'll take your word for that as I think you mentioned someone from NRE messaged you
As for are NRE on the list? You mean mine for information? Yes they are on the stuff I sent out because in the rare calls I've received from them they have questioned what I've put.

As for mentioning you've had a run in with someone from a TOC, I presume this is the reason why your hostile to me then?

Apologies if anything I've wrote has been read as being hostile, it wasn't meant to be. When people are saying something, I'd like to see them backing up their statements. We're all in the same business as far as I'm concerned, so rather than slag off another company in the industry, I think we should all be working together to improve things for passengers. The run in was in no way related to my response to you. The staff member concerned was disciplined for their actions
I'd like to add that I don't dislike NRE staff, in fact they are good people from what contact I've had with them. What I don't like is some of the information they put out is wrong. I don't hate NRE, what would be the point of that?

If there's inaccuracies in their information, I'd hope you'd raise it with them. I know some people in our company have contacts there and can just give them a quick ring to get things changed.
 

Class377/5

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Apologies, it won't let me quote your post for some reason (suggestions?)

Nope, not taken personally, from your post, it appeared you had a severe dislike for NRE and I was intrigued to know why - what sort of bugs were they? I only ask, as our team have never had any issues and I can advise my colleagues to check the info they send out

I don't really want to repeat in a public forum the bugs I have passed on but things like incorrect destinations, altered calling patterns to the same train day in, day out, for weeks on end.

Might be worth checking who they have contact with before making a statement, I know someone who knows someone who knows someone sort of thing, but they advise me that NRE are in constant contact with controls, stations and Network Rail

I don't have to check who they contact. My job is simple, be the information guy for everyone. If they aren't contacting me then they aren't getting the offical line.

I'm not attacking and if you're not supporting your argument (e.g. bugs etc) then I will also refrain from doing so.

See above

I'd suggest if you're not aware of them that you don't quote them (you say 'often to different timescales' - if you cannot support this (as you're asking me to do), then I'd suggest a rephrase

Ah I believe I mis understood you. By timescales I mean I put delays of 45mins (which I base on trains running around) and NRE puts 30mins. This is confusing for all passengers and staff alike.


That's good to hear

Twitter has become a great tool if used properly.

Also good to hear - that wouldn't mean NRE received it I'd presume though, but that wouldn't mean then didn't (totally speculating here as I don't have anyone there to check with)

Doesn't mean NRE got it, can't speak for Southern

Sounds interesting. Is this within your TOC or will it be industry wide?

It's industry wide with various TOC's progressing it but as a whole it's cross TOC.

Yes, my company do too, but can't comment on NRE, I'll take your word for that as I think you mentioned someone from NRE messaged you

I'm always amazed how what goes out gets back to people who have no interest in forums like this.

Apologies if anything I've wrote has been read as being hostile, it wasn't meant to be. When people are saying something, I'd like to see them backing up their statements. We're all in the same business as far as I'm concerned, so rather than slag off another company in the industry, I think we should all be working together to improve things for passengers. The run in was in no way related to my response to you. The staff member concerned was disciplined for their actions

Hopefully you feel that I've justified my view point more, even if you don't agree I'm right. I don't see it as a black and white but I'd like NRE to do things differently.

If there's inaccuracies in their information, I'd hope you'd raise it with them. I know some people in our company have contacts there and can just give them a quick ring to get things changed.

I've raised points a few times and I hope that it's taken forward. And as a pointer I do use NRE when I'm working, especially as the maps they use are helpful.

I care about information provision and dont want the railway to come under fire for simple things that can be fixed.
 

Atishyou

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I don't really want to repeat in a public forum the bugs I have passed on but things like incorrect destinations, altered calling patterns to the same train day in, day out, for weeks on end.

I'd presume those errors come from timetabling information. It may be worth checking where they get their info from? Presume it's timetabled information, uploaded by 'others'.

I don't have to check who they contact. My job is simple, be the information guy for everyone. If they aren't contacting me then they aren't getting the offical line.

Do you contact them? Presume as they are 'National', they're not just dealing with you?


Ah I believe I mis understood you. By timescales I mean I put delays of 45mins (which I base on trains running around) and NRE puts 30mins. This is confusing for all passengers and staff alike.

Yes, we appear to have crossed wires. I presumed you mean you asked them to do something for you that day and they didn't do it until 3 weeks later or something. If they put something different to what you say, why not just ring em and ask em why?

Twitter has become a great tool if used properly.

Agreed, and having been watching their feeds over the last few days, they're doing very well on it.

Doesn't mean NRE got it, can't speak for Southern

Agreed.

It's industry wide with various TOC's progressing it but as a whole it's cross TOC.

Sounds good, I'm very interested.

Hopefully you feel that I've justified my view point more, even if you don't agree I'm right. I don't see it as a black and white but I'd like NRE to do things differently.

I have more of an understanding now yes. I know you say you've contacted them on a number of occasions, but I'd suggest trying to get in touch with the people who do the work - make a contact there. I don't want to give any names but I know people in our Control have numbers for them and they ring them and tell them things and before you know it, it's updated.

I've raised points a few times and I hope that it's taken forward. And as a pointer I do use NRE when I'm working, especially as the maps they use are helpful.

Good to hear.

I care about information provision and dont want the railway to come under fire for simple things that can be fixed.

Good to hear. :D and I'm sure, as with all of us, they're looking for ways to do things differently. So as above, suggest trying to make a friend or two there and maybe you can get them to pull the right strings :)
 

Class377/5

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Messages
5,594
I'd presume those errors come from timetabling information. It may be worth checking where they get their info from? Presume it's timetabled information, uploaded by 'others'.

It's not just time tabling information as some of the problems have including reasons for (false) cancellations. as for time tabling errors, these are all logged.

Do you contact them? Presume as they are 'National', they're not just dealing with you?

Yes I contact them when I can. As for dealing with me, they would do for my TOC's information. Nationally they contact all TOC's but my location is central to our information sources so we should always be the point if contact.

Yes, we appear to have crossed wires. I presumed you mean you asked them to do something for you that day and they didn't do it until 3 weeks later or something. If they put something different to what you say, why not just ring em and ask em why?

When I say timelines I mean during problems, they give out different information based on what I don't know where as information I'd put out is based on TOC/NR information. This will be much more informed information as its directly from those involved.

Agreed, and having been watching their feeds over the last few days, they're doing very well on it.

Agreed.

I'm glad we can agree on something's!

Sounds good, I'm very interested.

Not as half as interested as I am. I'm very excited to get these systems going. Both as in industry investments in better systems are happening. I know a large sum was paid (i was surprised at the amount but its an major upgrade) for a TOC to see only a few months use prior to the franchise end. These are serious improvements that will see a better service for the public.

I have more of an understanding now yes. I know you say you've contacted them on a number of occasions, but I'd suggest trying to get in touch with the people who do the work - make a contact there. I don't want to give any names but I know people in our Control have numbers for them and they ring them and tell them things and before you know it, it's updated.

I know the person who does the control master list for all TOC's so sure I have a number somewhere.

Good to hear. :D and I'm sure, as with all of us, they're looking for ways to do things differently. So as above, suggest trying to make a friend or two there and maybe you can get them to pull the right strings :)

Some of the problems aren't always the fault of thoses doing the action but more a policy. A visit is always a good thing to do if you can.
 

BRX

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20 Oct 2008
Messages
2,602
So... regarding my initial complaint.

After much emailing eventually Southern admitted that they could not confirm that they had provided the information about the change to cycle restrictions to NRE. They seem to think that a notice on their own website was satisfactory.

NRE have confirmed to me that they did not receive any notification from Southern.

Southern say that it was in line with their procedure that we were thrown off a virtually empty train because we had brought the bikes onboard, and seem uninterested in any review of their procedure in such situations.

So I have passed it on to Passenger Focus.
 

BRX

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20 Oct 2008
Messages
2,602
An update to this if anyone is interested.

Passenger Focus looked into it and came back to me with an increased amount of compensation, and just forwarded Southern's response say little that made any more sense than what they'd already said to me - basically, some nonsense excuses about why they couldn't be bothered forwarding the info about this kind of service alteration to NRE and saying that we should have looked on the Southern website to check, not NRE.

I replied saying thanks for the extra compensation but that what i'm interested in is trying to get Southern to change their attitude, as I don't consider their response satisfactory and they obviously aren't intending to change the way they do things.

Passenger Focus came back to me saying essentially that they agreed with me, that Southern should provide information to NRE, as that's what NRE is there for, but that they are powerless to make Southern do anything about it.

So, that's great, a passenger interest organisation with pretty much no power to do anything about anything.

I'm now wondering if there's anywhere else I can take my complaint. Any ideas?
 
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