Can standard class accommodation be reclassified to first?

[lyesbkz]

Occasionally when trains are short-formed during busy times, some or all of the first class areas are declassified to reduce overcrowding (at least in EMT-land).

But today's announcement had the opposite effect - due to a short train we were advised that "the whole of Coach D is now for first class passengers only". Note that Coach D is formed of 28 first class seats and 22 standard.

Standard class passengers were asked to move from Coach D to other areas of the (already crowded) train whilst the (now two) first class coaches remained almost empty. I cannot find any provision for this - is it really enforceable?

 

[Darandio]

I cannot see why it wouldn't be, it's their service after all.

 

[bb21]

I'd assume that they can, if I have to give an opinion, on account of the fact that Virgin used to do that with Coach D on Voyagers on some services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see no reason why they can't do that, but if I held a First Class ticket I would be quite annoyed to be made to sit in what is essentially Standard accommodation without refund. I would certainly be after some vouchers.

 

[All Line Rover]

It was never possible to reserve a standard class seat in Coach D on VTWC services where it was designated as first class accommodation. Unless Coach D on EMT services is unreserveable, what EMT is attempting to do is completely different.

 

[Failed Unit]

I can see no reason why they can't do that, but if I held a First Class ticket I would be quite annoyed to be made to sit in what is essentially Standard accommodation without refund. I would certainly be after some vouchers.

I see your point but in many areas first class is the same as standard. Scotrail 158s and south eastern electrostar and thameslink 387s spring to mind. The will argue you are getting the service.

Worse first class. The gn317s.

 

[bb21]

It was never possible to reserve a standard class seat in Coach D on VTWC services where it was designated as first class accommodation. Unless Coach D on EMT services is unreserveable, what EMT is attempting to do is completely different.

Not sure whether EMT still reserve mixed Coach D's as the ones I normally use don't seem to have any reservations at all, including this one I am on atm, but allegedly on my commute I only use a small selection of trains.

If they didn't do reservations in Coach D then I don't see the difference. If they were turfing people out of their reserved seats then I agree that it seems a bit off.

 

[sheff1]

EMT still do Standard reservations in coach D (or, to be precise, they did when I travelled last week).

 

[lyesbkz]

Not sure whether EMT still reserve mixed Coach D's

They do, but...

If they were turfing people out of their reserved seats then I agree that it seems a bit off.

...the reservations were offline anyway as a consequence of the short train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see your point but in many areas first class is the same as standard.

It is, but not on EMT. Unless I know I'm going to get a 319 I don't do First on LM for that reason (it is by and large easy to get a seat on LM WCML services with a very few specific exceptions). If they reseated to 2+1 I would be likely to use it quite often.

 

[Kite159]

I'm guessing the service was meant to have been either a 7-coach 222 or a pair of 4/5 coach units, but for whatever reason it was short formed to being just a single 5-coach unit?

 

[furlong]

By a verbal announcement alone, no.

With unambiguous labelling, yes.

From the TSA 10.3:

10-3 ENTITLEMENT TO USE PARTICULAR CARRIAGES
(1) Marking of carriages
An Operator on whose trains a Fare is valid must allow the Purchaser of the Fare to use any carriage (and any part of a carriage) which is not marked as available only to the Purchasers of a particular type of Fare.
...
(3) Requirement to have classes of carriage
An Operator is not required on any train to make particular carriages available to the holders of Standard Class Fares or the holders of First Class Fares except (if it is a Franchise Operator) to the extent that it is required to do so by its Franchise Agreement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm guessing the service was meant to have been either a 7-coach 222 or a pair of 4/5 coach units, but for whatever reason it was short formed to being just a single 5-coach unit?

If there is a short-form, it would make sense to declassify to avoid overcrowding, not to do the opposite which shows rather a contempt for passengers.

 

[bb21]

By a verbal announcement alone, no.

With unambiguous labelling, yes.

From the TSA 10.3:

Did Virgin use to label Coach D's in that way? Sounds like a can of worms being opened here (as usual - not you, but the relevant TOC).

If there is a short-form, it would make sense to declassify to avoid overcrowding, not to do the opposite which shows rather a contempt for passengers.

Depends on the level of overcrowding but generally I agree.

I have never heard of such an occurrence aside from the now "past tense" Virgin practice until this thread.

 

[All Line Rover]

Did Virgin use to label Coach D's in that way? Sounds like a can of worms being opened here (as usual - not you, but the relevant TOC).

Usually yes (the "convertible" seats had velcro for antimacassars), but in any case the decision to designate Coach D as first class on a particular service was always planned in advance, with seats only reservable for first class ticket holders (including when using the VTWC seat selector, which allowed me to identify all of the services involved - the 18:23 Euston to Shrewsbury was one - before the practice ended).

I have never come across VTWC designating genuinely standard class seating as first class. Occasionally a standard class carriage might be reserved for a private party, but if the first class carriages are full, first class ticket holders can either sit in standard class and claim the difference back or, in my experience, are allowed to travel on a later service.

 

[yorksrob]

Stick a doily on the back of the seat and there you have it. Eh Connex

 

[All Line Rover]

By a verbal announcement alone, no.

With unambiguous labelling, yes.

From the TSA 10.3:

Any TOC pursuing such a practice should be legitimately hounded by the Daily Mail.

When I purchase a first class ticket I pay for the seat, not the "complimentary" service. I'd be just a little p****d if I was then asked to occupy cramped 2+2 seating on a long distance train.

 

[bb21]

Any TOC pursuing such a practice should be legitimately hounded by the Daily Mail.

I never thought I'd live to see the day you asking for the Daily Mail's help.

 

[lyesbkz]

By a verbal announcement alone, no.

With unambiguous labelling, yes.

I have noticed that the new NRCoT, which did not apply to this particular journey but will be in place from 1st October 2016, seem to strengthen this interpretation.

15. Using first class accommodation

15.1 Some train services include first class accommodation. Where first class accommodation is available, the relevant seats and area(s) of the train will be clearly marked.