Can the Sidcup Line have 8tph?

[Antman]

My thoughts on Charing Cross are that it could take on some more Kent services from Victoria. There would be some spare line and platform capacity, but I am sure it could be filled! The problem is two-track sections (Orpington to Sevenoaks) - so perhaps upping the Orpington/Sevenoaks local services to 6-8tph would be a good place to start. Hayes (avoiding Lewisham) could also increase..

I don't follow this, the current stopping service of 2 trains an hour between Orpington and Sevenoaks are lightly used and if anymore Hayes trains used the Lewisham avoiding line there would nothing left to serve Lewisham from the Hayes line.

 

[Bromley boy]

My thoughts on Charing Cross are that it could take on some more Kent services from Victoria. There would be some spare line and platform capacity, but I am sure it could be filled! The problem is two-track sections (Orpington to Sevenoaks) - so perhaps upping the Orpington/Sevenoaks local services to 6-8tph would be a good place to start. Hayes (avoiding Lewisham) could also increase.

Another option might be taking on some services which run via Swanley, either adding or re-locating from Victoria. I also also tend to think Victoria should have a more local focus, due to the two-track nature again and capacity. The big issue there is Bromley South demand for fasts. Otherwise, everything deeper Kent running only to Charing Cross wouldn't be a problem. Faster trains for Bromley South could use Rochester, Gillingham and Rainham to turn back. Further out left to HS1 or Charing Cross.

Hence Sidcup and the other two can have a very intense metro service to London Bridge and Cannon St. Much clearer, and with all the interchange options at LB people could need.

This is unrealistic I’m afraid. As has been extensively discussed on the London Bridge redevelopment thread Charing Cross is now at capacity due to scarce platform space. No way that services could be diverted in here from Victoria.

The sidcup line (aka Dartford loop) is the least used of the Dartford lines and has significant freight flows.

There are currently peak services to and from Cannon St which serve the Chatham mainline via the Chislehurst reversible - most seem to be fast to and from Rochester which is (I imagine) due to capacity constraints on the Chathams, the fact they block and SEML slow lines when accessing the reversible and the fact Swanley is already pretty well served by all-shacks TL services to Blackfriars and some fastish SE services to Victoria.

The way it is going is more and more A-B services with passengers expected to interchange (which to be fair is easy enough for journeys via Lewisham, London Bridge etc.) The mid Kent line will stop serving CST in 2022 (going to Victoria instead) with passengers having to interchange at a Lewisham. This will eliminate the conflicting move from P1 Lewisham - St Johns.

 

[Bromley boy]

I don't follow this, the current stopping service of 2 trains an hour between Orpington and Sevenoaks are lightly used and if anymore Hayes trains used the Lewisham avoiding line there would nothing left to serve Lewisham from the Hayes line.

These are the only services serving Knockholt and Dunton Green (Chelsfield is served by a few peak time fasts). By the time they get to Sevenoakes they are largely empty, of course, because anyone wanting Sevenoakes would likely have got a fast from either London or Orpington. Half hourly is sufficient for demand.

I agree there’s no scope to increase them. The reason they are only half hourly is also to avoid blocking up the SEML (during the AM/PM peak there are *a lot* of mainline services using the Sevenoakes - Orpington section of the SEML and stoppers get in the way!).

 

[Daz28]

The sidcup line (aka Dartford loop) is the least used of the Dartford lines and has significant freight flows.

How much of that is down to the current service provision? Most peak trains are standing room only from Sidcup onwards in the morning peak, and that includes the small number of services that start at Sidcup. Passengers left behind on the platform is common at Lee and Hither Green, particularly if there has been a cancellation.

Some of the freight that goes down the Sidcup line is only doing so to loop around to Angerstein Wharf. Reinstating the triangle at Charlton Junction would help, as discussed in another thread recently.

I wonder if making the loop services Charing Cross to Cannon Street would help? At least those on the outer edges of the loop would have a choice of going the longer way around to get to their destination of choice.

I travel to both Charing Cross and Cannon Street often, and changing at London Bridge is quite pleasant. Getting the tube from London Bridge in the peaks is however very unpleasant and I avoid at all costs, both the Jubilee and Northern line are far too crowded to be comfortable. If I am heading north from London Bridge I’d rather get the bus, but the new Thameslink services might change my mind.

 

[cle]

I was making those Orpington/Sevenoaks locals suggestions merely as there aren't so many places to send spare Charing Cross capacity to - and if Dartford Lines services were removed from CX, there might be some spare paths to fill out of CX.

That capacity could go elsewhere if it could be pathed well - such as Hayes instead at 6tph (4 fast, 2 via Lewisham). Or longer distance (hence suggesting via the reversible to Medway, as I know via Sevenoaks is so tough) - there aren't many other options.

 

[ComUtoR]

Passengers left behind on the platform is common at Lee and Hither Green, particularly if there has been a cancellation.

If your at Hither Green and your service coming up the Sidcup has been cancelled; you still have an alternative. Chnge platforms and grab a Charing Cross or Cannon Street coming up from Orpy. Personally If I lived near Lee I would also consider using Grove Park as an Option as its a short walk.

 

[carriageline]

This is unrealistic I’m afraid. As has been extensively discussed on the London Bridge redevelopment thread Charing Cross is now at capacity due to scarce platform space. No way that services could be diverted in here from Victoria.

The sidcup line (aka Dartford loop) is the least used of the Dartford lines and has significant freight flows.

There are currently peak services to and from Cannon St which serve the Chatham mainline via the Chislehurst reversible - most seem to be fast to and from Rochester which is (I imagine) due to capacity constraints on the Chathams, the fact they block and SEML slow lines when accessing the reversible and the fact Swanley is already pretty well served by all-shacks TL services to Blackfriars and some fastish SE services to Victoria.

The way it is going is more and more A-B services with passengers expected to interchange (which to be fair is easy enough for journeys via Lewisham, London Bridge etc.) The mid Kent line will stop serving CST in 2022 (going to Victoria instead) with passengers having to interchange at a Lewisham. This will eliminate the conflicting move from P1 Lewisham - St Johns.

To be fair it was more of a ‘pie in the sky idea’ of moving metros to Cannon St and Mainline to Charing Cross. Remove the crossing moves at Lewisham and Parks Bridge and the service would improve drastically IMO

Moving the Hayes trains to Vic won’t completely remove the conflicts though. You will still have the 2S** and the Cannon St Rounders (2I and 2O Cannon St - Cannon St)

 

[cle]

I think Hayes would need to all be fast from Charing Cross, and no longer serve Lewisham... unsure that might be for connections to DLR (and future Bakerloo).

 

[30907]

I think Hayes would need to all be fast from Charing Cross, and no longer serve Lewisham... unsure that might be for connections to DLR (and future Bakerloo).

That won't go down well!

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think Hayes would need to all be fast from Charing Cross, and no longer serve Lewisham... unsure that might be for connections to DLR (and future Bakerloo).

I've often thought that Hayes trains should just run fast from Ladywell to London Bridge all the time, but then I'm reminded that people will still need Lewisham if they need the DLR or to get to Woolwich or Bexleyheath even without entering zone 1.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Got on my first Sidcup fast today, much better than the ones that used to run via Woolwich, was nice to sail by a few stations, I hope these services are here to stay and not withdrawn and restoring the fasts via Woolwich, we really do need this service.

 

[Bromley boy]

To be fair it was more of a ‘pie in the sky idea’ of moving metros to Cannon St and Mainline to Charing Cross. Remove the crossing moves at Lewisham and Parks Bridge and the service would improve drastically IMO

Moving the Hayes trains to Vic won’t completely remove the conflicts though. You will still have the 2S** and the Cannon St Rounders (2I and 2O Cannon St - Cannon St)

True.

Slightly unrelated but the 20mph TSR coming off the up Greenwich at NKE seems to be causing a few delays, makes the NKE conflict worse as down CST trains are checked down to allow ex Greenwich services to *slowly* cross the junction.

Are there plans to remove it anytime soon? It has been there for months.

 

[MikeWh]

1: Charing Cross to Gillingham, fast from London Bridge to New Eltham, then Sidcup, Bexley, Dartford, Greenhithe, Gravesend and all stations.

Oi! Crayford is busier than Bexley.

There's going to be a lot of resistance to losing Victoria trains from Bexleyheath. It caused quite a stir when used as a deflection tactic in the discussions for the 2018 timetable.

If you want to end conflicting moves over the Lewisham diamond then you don't have to stop Sidcup line services to Cannon Street, you just run them direct from Hither Green to St John's as they did when rounders were first introduced. You can also allow Hayes trains to serve Lewisham while still going to Charing Cross.

 

[frodshamfella]

I'm finding reading this thread interesting, I used to be a regular user of the Bexleyheath Station, in the days of the slam door stock, and staffed station with waiting rooms

 

[ComUtoR]

If you want to end conflicting moves over the Lewisham diamond then you don't have to stop Sidcup line services to Cannon Street, you just run them direct from Hither Green to St John's as they did when rounders were first introduced.

Which then creates a conflict across two junctions instead.

 

[MikeWh]

Which then creates a conflict across two junctions instead.

Not quite sure what you're getting at. Direct HGR-STJ involves the junction off the mainline to Lewisham and the junction next to St Johns. Via Lewisham adds in the Hayes access to Lewisham and the diamond. Or am I missing something obvious?

 

[cle]

And then there would be no Lewisham to Sidcup line services... I don’t think that is realistic.

 

[ComUtoR]

Not quite sure what you're getting at. Direct HGR-STJ involves the junction off the mainline to Lewisham and the junction next to St Johns.

Exactly. It creates a conflict that isn't there. Just moving the conflicts from point a to point b doesn't help much.

When going via parks bridge to St Johns is direct and does avoid Lewisham but what happens is that the down stopping services then clash with services coming from the down kent fast and you end up always waiting at Parks Bridge to cross over to the slow. This move used to happen a lot and even with the services we have there is still a slow crawl round and wait for anything coming across or up.

The conflict coming across the diamond being moved down to the end of the North Kent still means that anything coming across the junction needs to wait at the bottom for services to cross over. This also happens already and you are often waiting for services coming across you at St Johns or services coming round from Parks Bridge.

There is only one way to get rid of the conflicts; remove them altogether. Anything up the North Kent goes to Cannon Street, anything up the Mid Kent goes to Charing Cross. It's part of the reason why the Vics got moved to the Sidcup. It removes a conflicting move across the junction at Lewisham. You could change the pathways so that each move across the diamond is paired up but the issue is that the slightest knock to the service and you conflict anyway. Not stopping the Charing Cross services at St Johns and New Cross and sending them over the flyover helps remove the conflicts.

A brief look at the train service requirements allows for some flexibility and train planning is an unenviable job. I'm not sure that playing crayonista is helpful and with Charing Cross Vs Cannon Street Vs Victoria means that you will always get a conflict somewhere unless you make a drastic sacrifice nobody is willing to make. One minute passengers want more direct services and then the want flexibility and a place to change. Some want a fast service and others demand a metro style service. Nobody wants to make the sacrifices needed to run a robust and efficient service :/

 

[MikeWh]

And then there would be no Lewisham to Sidcup line services... I don’t think that is realistic.

Yes there would - the Victoria and Charing Cross services. I'm suggesting both those call at Lewisham before the CHX ones go fast to London Bridge. The Cannon Streets miss Lewisham.

@ComUtoR Sidcup line trains are always going to cause a problem somewhere. Charing Cross bound trains either have to take the slow crossover at Parks Bridge or go through Lewisham and down Tanners Hill. If you are going to allow Cannon Street bound trains from Sidcup then missing Lewisham is a lot smoother than calling and crossing the diamond.

One thing I do not dispute though - train planning must be an extremely stressful and complicated job.

 

[ComUtoR]

I believe the option is there to miss Lewisham in new service requirements so it may indeed happen but it will impact everything across Parks Bridge. That's everything up the main from orpy/soaks and you still have the problem of Orpington - Cannon Street services that also cross at Lewisham.

Cutting across at St Johns has never really been the best option. Purely from a Drivers perspective, driving via parks bridge and through St Johns is slower and impacts more services. It is certainly somewhere I find myself sitting on signals and being checked down all the time and still impacting the trains from Lewisham. You may as well have stopped at Lewisham and waited :/

Everything that side must cut across at some point. Technically you could avoid St Johns and New Cross altogether and still get over to Cannon Street but that pathway would be very stupid. The benefit of the Lewisham diamond is the flexibility it offers when things go wrong. Running an up and down at the same time is a blessing and a curse. Not forgetting that dropping down the flyover still has a conflict with services coming round the fast.

It's truly a nightmare area that cannot be resolved. Even the flyover doubling down still only mitigated a small amount but then the planners gobble up the pathway with a tph increase.

Switching the Vic is another mitigation step that passengers are fighting. Another benefit of moving the North Kent Gilly service is that it still allows passengers to get into London Bridge and removes another service from the hellmouth that is Lewisham. Passengers want their cake and eat it but still want the conflicts removed. You can't do it without sacrificing something.

Personally I think the sacrifice must be made and the layout needs to be used as its been designed. As a passenger I rarely go into Cannon Street but the new mentality should be to get any service into London Bridge and change. That way any line you choose you can turn up and get on the first train that arrives and not care where its going. We have always said that the diveunder and the London Bridge rebuild is that it is designed for Thameslink services. SE are screwed and always will be.