Can they ask you to walk the remaining distance?

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by jednick, 29 Oct 2019.

  1. jednick

    jednick Member

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    For example, say I'm travelling on the last train of the day from London Paddington to Worcester Foregate Street. The train's late and it terminates at Worcester Shrub Hill.

    Say I've left my bike locked up at Foregate Street, so I really must return there. I'd walk it in about 12 minutes.

    But could I insist GWR get me there without walking, by providing a taxi, or is it considered a reasonable distance to walk?

    Taking it a bit further, say I'm travelling from Glasgow to Lancaster and then to Morecambe. I'm booked on the last train of the day from Lancaster to Morecambe but the train arrives late into Lancaster and I miss it. I could walk from Lancaster to Morecambe, it's possible, but it would take me about an hour and a quarter.

    Can you insist that a train operating company gets you to your actual destination station, if they can only get you to a station within walking distance of it?

    Who would decide what distance is "reasonable" to walk? Some people might have problems walking even short distances.
     
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  3. PG

    PG Member

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    I'd like to believe that the NRCot section 28.2 would provide a requirement for alternative transport to be provided in the circumstances you describe.
     
  4. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    In the case of the former assuming you know where you are going then you would probably be better to walk as it would take time for the road transport to arrive. In the case of the latter I'd wait.
     
  5. scrapy

    scrapy Established Member

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    You certainly could insist, whether it's worth the hassle and wait is up to the individuals circumstance. I think you may struggle to get Northern to provide onward transport from should you arrive at Wigan Wallgate instead of North Western! I also suspect train operators may try and get out of their obligations if you hold a ticket to ****stations and they take you to another station in the group as they may say they've forfilled their contract.
     
  6. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I think that's self-managing. If I could get to MKC but had to wait an hour for a RRB to Bletchley I'd walk, take a service bus or take a taxi, particularly given that my house is, if you drew a very wavy line from MKC to Bletchley, about 2/3 of the way along it. Someone who couldn't walk, couldn't afford a taxi and the buses to their destination had stopped for the day might wait.

    (Lancaster to Morecambe is a very similar situation I think)
     
  7. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    Is there some reason why you think this would be unreasonable?
    These are different towns; it is a long walk and clearly that would be unreasonable.
    If there is some reason why you were unable to walk it, or it would be unreasonable, yes.

    But in your case as a fit and able person who can walk it in less time than it would take for alternative transport to be provided, I do not see why you would attempt to insist on that?
    If you had a mobility issue, the train company should help you with that.
     
  8. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    If there ought to have been a train or bus, customers who've bought tickets are in my view entitled to be transported by means of their contract. Obviously this doesn't include walking unless you happen to choose to.

    Not everyone could walk from Worcester Shrub Hill to Worcester Foregate Street. Clearly the company is obliged to provide transport if someone does not wish to walk, although this may take longer.
     
  9. greatkingrat

    greatkingrat Established Member

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    A related question - if a train from Shrub Hill to Foregate Street is cancelled, can you choose to wait for the next one and claim delay repay, or would the company try to claim that if you had walked you would have had a shorter delay?
     
  10. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Are these honest questions? The rules are quite clear. The TOC is obliged to provide onward travel. Now CLEARLY sometimes it might be quicker for you to walk than wait for the bus but that is your choice. The requirement is that replacement travel be provided.
     
  11. option

    option Member

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    Surely they have made the decision to terminate early before doing so?
    Therefore they have time to (try) organise onward transport.

    In terms of the Worcester example, google reckons 14minutes to walk, which is very close to the 15minutes at which some operators delay repay kicks in. So for that one, I would put in for the delay repay.
     
  12. option

    option Member

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    Nothing about timeframe for alternative means of travel;
    being arranged
    turning up
    journey to destination
     
  13. robbeech

    robbeech Established Member

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    I know 1 operator that would reject delay repay based on the fact you abandoned your journey and would encourage you to source a refund from your point of purchase. I know that the same operator as a retailer would then turn around and reject a refund request as you used the ticket if only partially and as such you should claim delay repay. This is from a real world example.

    The operator (or indeed any operator) should organise alternative transport but you’d have to accept the additional delay in sourcing it. Part of the trouble here is that if it were a busy time (late Friday or Saturday night) there might be difficulty in sourcing a taxi that would be willing to transport a passenger somewhere that an able bodied person could walk in 10 to 15 minutes as the fare wouldn’t be worth it. They likely wouldn’t question whether the passenger was able to walk it and wouldn’t even entertain questioning whether they’re willing to walk it.
     
  14. SteelWeelApeal

    SteelWeelApeal Member

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    How about if it is a walk that is suggested in rail planners (such as Kings Cross to St Pancras, or between the Bradford or Windsor stations)?
     
  15. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    Most people would be able to walk and be able to do so in far less time than arranging any other method; anyone not in a position to (e.g. due to a mobility issue or any other reason) should speak to staff (or use a help point, as appropriate) to arrange onward transport.

    I'm going to day KGX to STP is effectively the same place. You only need to cross one road, and you don't need to get wet in the rain as you could go via the Underground passageway.
     
  16. option

    option Member

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    Those walks aren't an alternative to a rail journey
     
  17. option

    option Member

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    which is fine if there is no delay between the decision to terminate early/not run the service & the request for alternative transport being done.
     
  18. hkstudent

    hkstudent Member

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    Indeed, unless the passenger delayed were paid out delay repay on the spot, I would suggest the passenger to insist to wait for the alternative transport to gurantee a delay repay be paid. (Despite it would be a big waste of resources anyway)
     
  19. mmh

    mmh Established Member

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    It's impossible for a connecting walk to be cancelled by a TOC!
     
  20. randyrippley

    randyrippley Established Member

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    Last bus from Lancaster to Morecambe is around midnight, so just walk to the bus station
     
  21. noddingdonkey

    noddingdonkey Member

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    Does it make a difference which type of ticket is being used? In jednick's example, if he is travelling on a ticket to "Worcester Stations" (I haven't checked if such a group exists) has the railway fulfilled its obligation by getting him to Worcester Foregate Street?
     
  22. greatkingrat

    greatkingrat Established Member

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    They could be. For example if SWR services to Windsor Riverside were suspended and tickets were accepted on FGW to Windsor Central.
     
  23. vlad

    vlad Member

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    Many's the time the Derby to Crewe train has terminated at Stoke and I've decided just to walk home rather than go through all the hassle of asking them to get me back to Longport. They'd probably just tell me to wait for the next train anyway.

    I think the further you'd have to walk the more annoyed you'd be.
     
  24. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    I have had that option before. Walk to Newark Castle or wait 55 minutes for next train from north gate. I walk if this option is presented and the castle train is catchable.
     
  25. option

    option Member

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    I'll reword it then;

    Those walking routes don't mirror parallel rail services, there's no rail service between the two ends.
     
  26. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    A key question is whether passengers who exercise their right to walk (whether encouraged to do so or not) are entitled to reduced delay repay compensation than if they had not done so.

    At a minimum, the time taken to walk to the alternative station should be taken into account.

    I am reminded of a case where a forum member was suspected by some members of walking from Newbury to Newbury Racecourse, the implication being that had they done so (undetectable to the TOC) they would have reduced the company's delay repay liabilities. In this case, the request was worded sufficiently vaguely to leave doubt as to whether the passenger did wait for the train or walked. Either way, in that case, I'd argue Delay Repay should be based on when the train would have arrived, regardless of whether or not the passenger chose to walk the last segment of the journey. The thread is here if anyone is interested: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...due-to-missed-connection.160708/#post-3342931

    I see these as rather different scenarios.

    For Stoke to Longton, there should be no expectation that any passenger would want to walk it. Yes some might and that is their prerogative.

    For Newark Stations, these are two members of the same station group and there is a recognised out of station interchange / fixed link between the two; it is a walk that is well sign posted, not particularly long, and appears as part of regular journeys. It makes a lot of sense to advertise the alternative service for anyone who is willing and able to get it. People who have mobility issues would be advised to wait the 55 minutes for the next service from Northgate.

    In my opinion there cannot really be a set of absolute rules set in stone for all potential scenarios; there are just too many variables. A pragmatic approach should be taken by all involved.
     
  27. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I've more than once been in the position where I've arrived at MKC very slightly late (10 minutes maybe) and so missing a connection to Bletchley, or that connection to Bletchley has been cancelled. Either way, I've got the choice of walking for an hour or forking out for a taxi (no late evening buses to where I'm going) and getting no Delay Repay (so being somewhat out of pocket), or I could sit there for half an hour to wait for the connection and get a substantial payout (I doubt LNR would have paid for the taxi out of goodwill). This seems remarkably unfair, and I'd agree that if a passenger decides to make their own arrangements for a leg of their journey at their own cost of time or inconvenience (wherever in the journey that is, in my view, not just at the end) then they should still be due the Delay Repay which would have been paid had they not done so.

    Indeed, most people would probably just claim it anyway on the basis that there is, with present ticketing arrangements, not a lot that can be done to detect that kind of technically fraudulent claim. Indeed, if the ticket was a VTWC-only Advance bought online with VTWC directly they'd get paid it whether they liked it or not!
     
  28. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    I had a similar issue with a journey from Paddington to Llansamlet.

    GWR were aware that demand for the 1915 from Paddington on the day in question would be huge, and were advised to omit the Reading pick up only call. They didn't do so; the train was a few mins late departing Paddington with some passengers left behind. B
    t
    train called at Reading as booked to pick up; passengers tried to board but were unable to, so there was a lengthy delay. We lost our path and got stuck behind a freight train. We were faced with two options:
    1) staying in to Swansea and cycling to Llansamlet
    2) change trains and wait around 80 minutes for a following train which called at Llansamlet.

    GWR said we could choose whichever option we wanted but if we chose option 2 we would get 100 per cent delay repay compensation, but would not do so if we went for option 1.

    We therefore chose to visit a pub at Bridgend (I think) while we waited for the next train and we got full compensation.

    If nothing else, TOCs need to be clearer about what options are available to passengers and what compensation will or won't be paid for each option.
     
  29. Nick Ashwell

    Nick Ashwell Member

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    Surely it would also depend on your ticket. If your ticket was to "Worcester" and not a specific station they could claim, whether rightly or wrongly that they delivered the journey?
     
  30. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    The other issue I would like to throw in the mix here is if a customer knows the way between the two stations or not on foot. What might be a doable walk, even if its say 30 minutes or so, is a lot easier when one knows the way. I would opt to insist the TOC arranges alternative transport if I didn't know the way to the destination station and its not exactly a strones throw away.
     
  31. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    Tickets are to "Worcester Stations" I think the vast majority of people would be OK with it, but if someone really had to be at the other station and had reduced mobility then I think the TOC would be obliged to make alternative ravel arrangements (unless there was a later train).
     

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