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Can you pass through a station a second time when making a single journey?

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infobleep

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Apologies if this has been asked before. Can you pass through a station a second time en route, if to pass through that station you take a different line to pass through it? So there isn't a doubling back on lines themselves but you do pass through the same station twice. I don't wish to give the example I'm thinking of on here, although one exists.

Think of the journey as x shaped, with a walk between two stations at the top parts of the x.

So it's
Depart A
Pass through B
Alight at C
Walk to D [same station group but different line]
Repass through B
Arrive at E

I tried to look this up on Trainsplit but I just got the error:
We're sorry. Your search failed for the following reason: Unable to process your request for an unknown reason - technical information follows: Object reference not set to an instance of an object. - at FastJP_API.FastJP_Controllers.JourneyPlannerWorker.Post(String value) in C:\Users\User\source\repos\fastjp-api\FastJP-API\FastJP Controllers\JourneyPlannerWorker.cs:line 116.
Please try again or contact us.
OK

I tried doing the search on FastJP but that would like me to double back, as it's faster, whereas I wish to walk between two stations, since a double back wouldn't be allowed. That probably explains why I got the above error on Train Split.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Passing through the same station twice is a "double back" and is not normally allowed.

There are however times when it is:
1. When there is a specific easement - you get these for situations where practically every train to a major interchange passes through it but almost nothing stops.
2. Where the stations are in a routeing group and the double-back is in the middle of the journey (not at either end).
3. Where a direct train from the origin on your ticket to the destination on your ticket happens to do this.

Have I missed any other exceptions?
 

30907

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If you can't get an itinerary with double back via either C or D (which I think is the situation you describe), I think you might hit trouble :(
 

infobleep

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Thanks everyone for your replies. It clears that up now. .

I can still use the ticket for the rest of my journey but I will buy additional tickets to cover the bit I wish to double back on. The train stops at the point I need the additional ticket so it's no problem there.
 

4COR

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Fine folk from here also told me (when I asked a similar question) that a doubleback is allowed when you do:

A->B
B->C (routing point for A)
C->D via B (and onwards appropriately)

I know of one location this is permitted.
 

robbeech

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Check whether you can obtain itineraries for A to E via C or A to E via D. If so then you’d only need one extra single ticket. Although an A to C and D to E ticket may be priced suitably to save the fuss. With flexible tickets you could always stop short at B and start short at B on the return journey if you made one on those 2 tickets, even if it was the same train (providing it stopped at B).
 

infobleep

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Just tried a similar journey but via a slightly different route which doesn't involve a double back and I'm still getting the same error.

However I'm not aware of a routing guide change.
 

Paul Kelly

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Fine folk from here also told me (when I asked a similar question) that a doubleback is allowed when you do:

A->B
B->C (routing point for A)
C->D via B (and onwards appropriately)

I know of one location this is permitted.

Yes, this is correct. As long C is an appropriate origin routeing point for a journey from A to D this is fine as the local journey to the routeing point (A - B - C) and the main mapped part of the journey (C - B - D) are evaluated separately.
 

infobleep

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Fine folk from here also told me (when I asked a similar question) that a doubleback is allowed when you do:

A->B
B->C (routing point for A)
C->D via B (and onwards appropriately)

I know of one location this is permitted.
Yes, this is correct. As long C is an appropriate origin routeing point for a journey from A to D this is fine as the local journey to the routeing point (A - B - C) and the main mapped part of the journey (C - B - D) are evaluated separately.
Interesting. Not that it applies in the case of the journey I'm writing about but still interesting none the less.
 

plugwash

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Presumably that rule is there to cover most* cases where someone needs to make a local journey in the "wrong direction" to pick up their long distance train.

* Some local stations ( for example, cheadle hulme and hitchin ) are routing points in their own right, so require easements.
 

Bletchleyite

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Presumably that rule is there to cover most* cases where someone needs to make a local journey in the "wrong direction" to pick up their long distance train.

* Some local stations ( for example, cheadle hulme and hitchin ) are routing points in their own right, so require easements.

The "double back within station group" rule catches a lot of these, such as doubling back through Deansgate to change at Manchester Oxford Road or Piccadilly when going from the CLC line to something via Salford Crescent or vice versa.
 

geoffk

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I remember passing through Haymarket twice some years ago, coming from the WCML and heading for I think Aviemore, and one or other of the trains I used didn't call at Haymarket.
 

infobleep

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I've found another ticket from another station. that does produce an itinerary and includes a double back, not as I intend but a double back none the less. This is shown on mutiple ticketing sites and National Rail Enquiries. I found it on Train Split unintentionally.

Now to figure out why, as I don't know if it's a booking system error that needs an itinerary or something valid via the routing guide.

However, to actually use this ticket in the real world? I'm not sure if it's worth any potential hassle that might occur.
 

Ken H

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What about a Leeds- Windermere ticket? You would go through Carnforth, and get off the Leeds train at Lancaster. then you get a train to Oxenholme which goes through Carnforth. But doesnt stop there.
Or is that invalid for your question cos the mainline platforms have been removed?
 

yorkie

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Lancaster to Oxenholme is not deemed to be via Carnforth. Therefore this is deemed to be the shortest route.

However even if it was, it would be valid to double back within Lancaster Group.

(I don't do algebra but I will answer real questions! ;))
 

4F89

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Polesworth to anywhere you would have to at some point if on a return journey.....
 

infobleep

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I could list the stations in my example but I don't think some others would thank me, if it led to changes. It may not do of course but is it worth the risk?

I don't know of another example or I'd have used one.
 

Ken H

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in the 70's some saturday Leeds morecambe trains used to go via Bradford Forster Sq.
they were quite long trains too.
dont think they have done that for some time. Certainly not since they diverted them to lancaster.
 

Deerfold

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in the 70's some saturday Leeds morecambe trains used to go via Bradford Forster Sq.
they were quite long trains too.
dont think they have done that for some time. Certainly not since they diverted them to lancaster.

There were some did that in the nineties on a Sunday, so you'd pass through Shipley twice.
 

30907

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There were some did that in the nineties on a Sunday, so you'd pass through Shipley twice.
I don't think staying on the same train is what the OP had in mind :)
Georgemas Jn is a longstanding current example of this.
 

infobleep

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I don't think staying on the same train is what the OP had in mind :)
Georgemas Jn is a longstanding current example of this.
No it wasn't, which is partly why I wasn't certain of any suitable examples that wouldn't invoke easements.
 

30907

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No it wasn't, which is partly why I wasn't certain of any suitable examples that wouldn't invoke easements.
As I thought. :)
I decided not to mention the 0102 Blackfriars-Bromley N-Orpington back in the 70s - or the New Romney and Dungeness branches in the 20s - because that would be well OT.
 
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Dr Hoo

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If I've understood the question correctly an example of a 'plausible journey' might arise on a trip from Euston to Hunts Cross. Say you wanted to travel First Class on an Avanti service from London for the sake of speed and comfort - not faffing around with having to change at Crewe and Liverpool South Parkway - so go through to Lime Street. Easy Peasy.

No immediate handy direct train to Hunts Cross from Lime Street so take short stroll to Central and catch frequent Merseyrail train to Hunts Cross, passing through Liverpool South Parkway a second time. You would just get two tickets.
 

30907

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If I've understood the question correctly an example of a 'plausible journey' might arise on a trip from Euston to Hunts Cross. Say you wanted to travel First Class on an Avanti service from London for the sake of speed and comfort - not faffing around with having to change at Crewe and Liverpool South Parkway - so go through to Lime Street. Easy Peasy.

No immediate handy direct train to Hunts Cross from Lime Street so take short stroll to Central and catch frequent Merseyrail train to Hunts Cross, passing through Liverpool South Parkway a second time. You would just get two tickets.
Wouldn't that depend on whether a London-Hunt's Cross ticket was valid via Lime Street? If it was, one ticket would suffice.
 

plugwash

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Unfortunately it seems that at least according to NRE two tickets are indeed required for london to hunts cross via liverpool lime street :(

Hunts cross is in "hunts cross group" (along with liverpool south parkway). So a doubleback from lime street on the same ticket would require an easement and presumablly there isn't one.
 

plugwash

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National rail enquiries thinks Wembly central to carlisle via Euston is valid on a single ticket.

i'm not 100% sure how the routing guide should be interpreted in the case of "LONDON" routes, I.E. whether the "no doubling back" rule should be applied seperately to the "to london" and "from london" parts or to the journey as a whole.
 

Hadders

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National rail enquiries thinks Wembly central to carlisle via Euston is valid on a single ticket.

i'm not 100% sure how the routing guide should be interpreted in the case of "LONDON" routes, I.E. whether the "no doubling back" rule should be applied seperately to the "to london" and "from london" parts or to the journey as a whole.

If the ticket is routed 'via London' then you consider separately the permitted routes from Wembley Central to London and from London to Carlisle when working out the routes you may take. I suspect there (but haven't checked) that there's an easement permitted a double back.
 
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