Cancellation of Last Train

[Clayton]

Or the passengers could take a bit of personal responsibility for their journey.

Explain yourself. What are they meant to do?

 

[MDB1images]

Anyone on a last train with a valid ticket will be transported home by alternate means (be it Rail Replacement or Taxi), it may take time (getting hold of a coach and driver at 23:30 on a Saturday won't be easy)but you won't be stranded.

In exceptional circumstances when no road transport is available(or: floods severe weather)hotel accomodation will be provided.
If the accomodation is full in the location the nearest town/city will be looked at.
On the very rare occasions this can't happen temporary accomodation will be used(station waiting rooms opened, council sports halls utilised).

 

[robbeech]

Sorry to bring this back to the top but I wanted to confirm my understanding after a situation last night.

Unfortunately the Mid- Cheshire line (Chester - Manchester) rather fell apart with the last 3 trains from Manchester cancelled.

I had been attending a concert in Manchester and arrived at Piccadilly intending to catch the 22:40 which had been canned but there were station announcements telling people to get a tram to Altrincham which I did (if there are issues between Altrincham and Manchester isn't mad to do your contingency from Altrincham)

On arrival into Altrincham it became clear that there was no such plan...no train shuttle, bus or even member of staff was on site and so people were left to find their own transport at their own cost.

I phoned there call centre, which was in out of hours mode, and managed to get something for myself (and a couple of others) but they implied that they were taking pity rather than fulfilling an obligation.

Before I take things further (and believe me this was not what I wanted to do at nearly midnight on a Friday night in the middle of ninowhe) am I right that Northern massively failed here? Should something have been provided and can those people who were not as forceful as myself get their money back?

Yes. Northern had an obligation to get you home. It is silly but I’m always suspicious of being told to go somewhere else where a plan is in place to get people home. Whilst I’m sure it is t generally the case, in my experience this has been nothing more than a way to get rid of passengers on 100% of occasions it has happened to me.
This activity is practised all too frequently. Send the passengers somewhere else then it is not our problem. On 100% of occasions this has happened to me the staff at the next place (if they exist) have no idea what is happening and generally can’t help. Sometimes they send you on somewhere else saying that staff there are ready to help, again this is a lie.
I’m not suggesting this happens every time, but it has done every time I have been in the situation.

 

[Belperpete]

Yes. Northern had an obligation to get you home. It is silly but I’m always suspicious of being told to go somewhere else where a plan is in place to get people home. Whilst I’m sure it is t generally the case, in my experience this has been nothing more than a way to get rid of passengers on 100% of occasions it has happened to me.
This activity is practised all too frequently. Send the passengers somewhere else then it is not our problem. On 100% of occasions this has happened to me the staff at the next place (if they exist) have no idea what is happening and generally can’t help. Sometimes they send you on somewhere else saying that staff there are ready to help, again this is a lie.
I’m not suggesting this happens every time, but it has done every time I have been in the situation.

It is easy to be wise after the event, but they would have had no idea how many people they were redirecting that way, when they might get there, what their final destinations were, etc. so how could they possibly have made arrangements for dealing with them? I think I would have smelt a rat.

I have been nearly caught once before by blithe assurances that all will be sorted when I get to xxxx, only to find the staff at xxxx know nothing about it. So now, if a train I am on has missed a connection meaning that I will have missed the last train further down the line, and if I am told to continue with my journey, I always ask what is going to happen when I get to xxxx? Who do I see when I get there? Do they know about me? Has a taxi been arranged? Who do I phone if there is no-one there?

It is best to ask these questions of the station supervisor or such-like, who has the ability to phone Control and agree things, rather than platform staff. I write down what what I am told, in front of the person telling me, and make sure they are aware I have taken a note of their name. It may take a bit of time and effort to do this, but it could save a lot of time and worry further on. I also tell the guard of any service I am travelling forward on when my ticket is being checked, and reconfirm the arrangements at any succeeding station where I have to change. Basically, make as many staff as reasonably possible aware of my predicament.

 

[Belperpete]

Fortunately I've never been in that situation, hopefully it's a very rare occurrence, but I was told by a railwayman that if you've got a ticket then they have to get you to your destination come hell or high water.

The important caveat there being that you have to have a ticket, and you have to have bought that ticket before being advised that the train was cancelled or delayed. If you are making a critical journey, it is therefore strongly advisable to book your ticket beforehand. Particularly if travelling from a station that has no ticket-issuing facilities. You can't buy a ticket from the guard if the train doesn't turn up, and no ticket equals no right to assistance or compensation.

 

[robbeech]

It is easy to be wise after the event, but they would have had no idea how many people they were redirecting that way, when they might get there, what their final destinations were, etc. so how could they possibly have made arrangements for dealing with them? I think I would have smelt a rat.

I have been nearly caught once before by blithe assurances that all will be sorted when I get to xxxx, only to find the staff at xxxx know nothing about it. So now, if a train I am on has missed a connection meaning that I will have missed the last train further down the line, and if I am told to continue with my journey, I always ask what is going to happen when I get to xxxx? Who do I see when I get there? Do they know about me? Has a taxi been arranged? Who do I phone if there is no-one there?

It is best to ask these questions of the station supervisor or such-like, who has the ability to phone Control and agree things, rather than platform staff. I write down what what I am told, in front of the person telling me, and make sure they are aware I have taken a note of their name. It may take a bit of time and effort to do this, but it could save a lot of time and worry further on. I also tell the guard of any service I am travelling forward on when my ticket is being checked, and reconfirm the arrangements at any succeeding station where I have to change. Basically, make as many staff as reasonably possible aware of my predicament.

With the risk of an OT swing, I find my self in the predicament if the last Hull Trains from King’s Cross is late. If I miss the Worksop service I will miss the last Whitwell connection. Advice is to get to Worksop on the next (last) train and have it sorted from there but Worksop is unstaffed at that time in the evening and following their advice is guaranteed to leave you stranded. Northern onboard staff refuse to help as it is not them that has delayed you, EMT aren’t interested as it’s not their issue. HT aren’t prepared to do anything to help. It’s not beyond my abilities to get myself home but it would be an unacceptable situation for those without this ability or funding or local knowledge to do so.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I was once assured by a Machynlleth conductor - nice chap - that the very last Borth to Aberystwyth is 100% reliable.

So we had an excellent and convivial dinner - went with hope for the last train on a very cold and wild February evening - nothing - zilch etc , - so this not being an emergency pressed the help point (Project Connect) - so we go a mechanical voice which said "the next train is Sunday morning"


So we went back to a certain , slightly alternative pub in the hope of a taxi being summoned - ended up getting a lift back several convivial hours later by a local who (a) was more than half cut (b) drove back to Aber via the side roads (c) needed our assistance in such things as "bend to your right (d) dropped us at the town limits - wisely I suspect.

 

[Belperpete]

With the risk of an OT swing, I find my self in the predicament if the last Hull Trains from King’s Cross is late. If I miss the Worksop service I will miss the last Whitwell connection. Advice is to get to Worksop on the next (last) train and have it sorted from there but Worksop is unstaffed at that time in the evening and following their advice is guaranteed to leave you stranded. Northern onboard staff refuse to help as it is not them that has delayed you, EMT aren’t interested as it’s not their issue. HT aren’t prepared to do anything to help. It’s not beyond my abilities to get myself home but it would be an unacceptable situation for those without this ability or funding or local knowledge to do so.

Advice from who? As I say, you must get an assurance from whoever is giving you that advice that they have actually advised someone at the station concerned of the situation. If you know that the station concerned is going to be unmanned, confront them with the fact that they are giving you false information. Do NOT be fobbed off by vague assurances that "someone will sort it" when you get there.

In the case you mention, I certainly would not get on the train to Workshop without an assurance from either the hull trains guard or the station supervisor where you get off the Hull train that arrangements were in place.

 

[robbeech]

Advice from who? As I say, you must get an assurance from whoever is giving you that advice that they have actually advised someone at the station concerned of the situation. If you know that the station concerned is going to be unmanned, confront them with the fact that they are giving you false information. Do NOT be fobbed off by vague assurances that "someone will sort it" when you get there.

In the case you mention, I certainly would not get on the train to Workshop without an assurance from either the hull trains guard or the station supervisor where you get off the Hull train that arrangements were in place.

No, but many people will, and will come unstuck at Worksop when they realise there is nobody to help them. The attitude of ‘let it be someone else’s problem’ is very apparent with a small number of staff and TOCs unfortunately.

Whilst there arguments to say it should not be necessary I would always have tickets purchased in advance where there is a chance I will be requiring one of the last services of the day, this is my contribution to helping my own situation turn out as well as it can do given the circumstances.

 

[Taunton]

Northern onboard staff refuse to help as it is not them that has delayed you, EMT aren’t interested as it’s not their issue.

Surprising this sort of thing is not sorted out in franchise agreement requirements. For airlines where passengers have been with multiple companies, it is the responsibility of the last airline you used to sort out things like missing baggage, because it is at the end of their part of the trip that you find things missing, and it is their staff who are in place. "Not us that did it" is not allowed to come into it. Any sorting out of the costs is for the various airlines to sort out among themselves afterwards, no impact on the passenger.

 

[Gems]

Us Northern onboard staff are very limited in what we can do. All I can do is make a phone call to our control centre and hope they are good to their word.

Look, my advice is this. Some TOC's are very good at trying to get you out of their hair. 'Cross Country' have a good record of doing this, or a bad record I suppose.
Do not arrive at a staffed station and then embark further to a unstaffed station if you have missed a connection due to late running. As much as I as a conductor would love to help, my hands are tied. It is the responsibility of the TOC who made you late to get you home, so please don't jump on another TOC's service and think they will be willing to pick up the challenge.

 

[jawr256]

It is the responsibility of the TOC who made you late to get you home, so please don't jump on another TOC's service and think they will be willing to pick up the challenge.

I'm not sure that's in the spirit of the NRCoT, which says:

28.2. Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I once came across some religious do-gooding types that had taken it upon themselves to set up a traveller's helpdesk on the concourse at East Croydon station. One of the women involved with it proudly told me how they'd paid for a taxi out of their own funds to get someone to their destination after a last train was cancelled. I don't think she was impressed when I told her that they'd ended up doing the train operator's job for them.

 

[pemma]

Sorry to bring this back to the top but I wanted to confirm my understanding after a situation last night.

Unfortunately the Mid- Cheshire line (Chester - Manchester) rather fell apart with the last 3 trains from Manchester cancelled.

I had been attending a concert in Manchester and arrived at Piccadilly intending to catch the 22:40 which had been canned but there were station announcements telling people to get a tram to Altrincham which I did (if there are issues between Altrincham and Manchester isn't mad to do your contingency from Altrincham)

On arrival into Altrincham it became clear that there was no such plan...no train shuttle, bus or even member of staff was on site and so people were left to find their own transport at their own cost.

I phoned there call centre, which was in out of hours mode, and managed to get something for myself (and a couple of others) but they implied that they were taking pity rather than fulfilling an obligation.

Before I take things further (and believe me this was not what I wanted to do at nearly midnight on a Friday night in the middle of ninowhe) am I right that Northern massively failed here? Should something have been provided and can those people who were not as forceful as myself get their money back?

After seeing quite a few Twitter posts about cancellations on the Mid-Cheshire last Saturday night I started a new thread about it here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...services-and-not-assisting-passengers.173391/

I'm aware one person stayed with a friend and travelled back the next morning after being told they were on their own. I've suggested to them to put in a Delay Repay claim for 610 minutes and said if they purchased any refreshments and have receipts they should try and get Northern to pay up for those under EU directive 1371/2007 given the length of the delay.

 

[Darandio]

As much as I as a conductor would love to help, my hands are tied. It is the responsibility of the TOC who made you late to get you home, so please don't jump on another TOC's service and think they will be willing to pick up the challenge.

As you have already stated that you are a guard, is this the advice you dish out during disruption? If so that is very worrying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As you have already stated that you are a guard, is this the advice you dish out during disruption? If so that is very worrying.

Part of it is. If you are disrupted and know you will not make your connection, it indeed does not make sense to leave a staffed station and head for an unstaffed one where you will almost certainly not receive any assistance and have to arrange your own taxi - if indeed one is available. (Ever tried to get one from Grange over Sands?)

However, if @Gems was trained to pass the buck in the way he proposes he would, that is unacceptable. Is that how Northern train their guards? If so, they are even more rotten than I thought they were (and the mind boggles as to how they are getting away with it, as even GTR, which is about as rotten as things previously got, does not have form for doing this). The NRCoT is quite clear - any TOC that is reasonably in a position to assist must do so, and a Northern guard is certainly in the position to contact their Control and inform passengers of what they say at the very least (as @Gems himself does say).

 

[Gems]

Part of it is. If you are disrupted and know you will not make your connection, it indeed does not make sense to leave a staffed station and head for an unstaffed one where you will almost certainly not receive any assistance and have to arrange your own taxi - if indeed one is available. (Ever tried to get one from Grange over Sands?)

However, if @Gems was trained to pass the buck in the way he proposes he would, that is unacceptable. Is that how Northern train their guards? If so, they are even more rotten than I thought they were (and the mind boggles as to how they are getting away with it, as even GTR, which is about as rotten as things previously got, does not have form for doing this). The NRCoT is quite clear - any TOC that is reasonably in a position to assist must do so, and a Northern guard is certainly in the position to contact their Control and inform passengers of what they say at the very least (as @Gems himself does say).

Let me make it clear. It is not passing the buck. Guards can do nothing but inform customer services of what a passenger tells them. We have no authority to order a taxi, we have no authority to hold up a train whilst we try and figure out what to do. We have no authority to proportion blame. We have no say in what if any alternative transport arrangements are put in place.
You are expecting the wrong people to sort the mess out. We can't do this. The best I can do is make a phone call, which I would gladly do. But sorting out onward travel is beyond our remit.

 

[Esker-pades]

As so often on the railways, it appears that it is the system not the staff who is at fault. Bleating at staff (in this instance) is going to have little(or no effect. There has to be some kind of pressure on management to change the system in order to make the whole thing work properly.

(Obviously, there will be that one member of staff who just cannot be bothered, no matter what the rule is.)

 

[pemma]

Let me make it clear. It is not passing the buck. Guards can do nothing but inform customer services of what a passenger tells them. We have no authority to order a taxi, we have no authority to hold up a train whilst we try and figure out what to do. We have no authority to proportion blame. We have no say in what if any alternative transport arrangements are put in place.
You are expecting the wrong people to sort the mess out. We can't do this. The best I can do is make a phone call, which I would gladly do. But sorting out onward travel is beyond our remit.

I think where there's been some confusion is you earlier said not to jump on another TOCs' service. I get the impression if someone's journey was XC Birmingham-Leeds and NT Leeds-Harrogate and due to a XC delay/cancellation they miss the last Leeds-Harrogate then what you're saying is don't jump on a TP Leeds-York and expect someone to then arrange a taxi from York to Harrogate. However, others seem to taking it as if you have a TP only ticket for Leeds-Liverpool and TP cancel their last Liverpool train of the day then Northern won't convey you on their later Manchester-Liverpool service.

 

[Gems]

I think where there's been some confusion is you earlier said not to jump on another TOCs' service. I get the impression if someone's journey was XC Birmingham-Leeds and NT Leeds-Harrogate and due to a XC delay/cancellation they miss the last Leeds-Harrogate then what you're saying is don't jump on a TP Leeds-York and expect someone to then arrange a taxi from York to Harrogate. However, others seem to taking it as if you have a TP only ticket for Leeds-Liverpool and TP cancel their last Liverpool train of the day then Northern won't convey you on their later Manchester-Liverpool service.

If that is what people think, then yes they are wrong. It isn't that at all. What I am saying is this.
1) Please don't jump on a train and expect the guard to sort out onward travel from the terminating station we are going to. We would love to be able, but it simply is not in our remit.
2) Even if we could, consider the availability of getting a taxi. Easier to get a taxi from say 'Leeds' than 'Horsforth'
3) Will there be any staff at the terminating station to help you. Never travel to a unstaffed station if you are going to need onward alternative transport sorting.
A unstaffed railway will bring a world of issues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think where there's been some confusion is you earlier said not to jump on another TOCs' service. I get the impression if someone's journey was XC Birmingham-Leeds and NT Leeds-Harrogate and due to a XC delay/cancellation they miss the last Leeds-Harrogate then what you're saying is don't jump on a TP Leeds-York and expect someone to then arrange a taxi from York to Harrogate.

Yes, I think that's what he means. Don't end yourself up at an unstaffed station that isn't where you want to get to, as there will almost certainly be no assistance and possibly not even any taxis.

 

[Esker-pades]

My experience is to seek assistance as soon as possible from any member of staff. I had a 20 minute delay on a journey with Virgin Trains with a connection of 15 minutes for the last train of the day (which was operated by West Midlands Trains). I asked the guard once the train was moving what I could do. She phoned ahead to (in this case) Rugby see if the connection was late, which it wasn't. But, when I got to Rugby the staff there were already aware that they had a passenger needing alternative onward transport.

 

[MDB1images]

I mentioned the plan in an earlier post and as to prove private companies do work together and it doesn't always fall doen here's an example from last week.

ScotRail customer travelling from Inverness missed her last LNWR train to Durham due to a delay en route.
She was put on a TPE train at Haymarket to Carlisle where Virgin Trains staff met her on arrival and arranged her taxi home.

 

[Belperpete]

No, but many people will, and will come unstuck at Worksop when they realise there is nobody to help them. The attitude of ‘let it be someone else’s problem’ is very apparent with a small number of staff and TOCs unfortunately.

Agreed, but it needs people to stand up against this practice for it to stop.

Whilst there arguments to say it should not be necessary I would always have tickets purchased in advance where there is a chance I will be requiring one of the last services of the day, this is my contribution to helping my own situation turn out as well as it can do given the circumstances.

Sound advice. Also where you are travelling from an unstaffed station, and there is a possibility that you might not be able to purchase a ticket at the station (e.g. if the ticket machine is out of order). Having a ticket gives you rights.

Don't end yourself up at an unstaffed station that isn't where you want to get to, as there will almost certainly be no assistance and possibly not even any taxis.

My experience is to seek assistance as soon as possible from any member of staff.

Again, sound advice. Just beware that there is very little that Guards and Platform Staff can do, other than pass a message on. Try and speak to someone like a station supervisor.

As MDB1 says, things can work well. But the staff who just fob people off need to be reported. So get the name and rank of whoever advises you to travel on, in case they haven't made arrangements for you.

 

[Esker-pades]

Again, sound advice. Just beware that there is very little that Guards and Platform Staff can do, other than pass a message on. Try and speak to someone like a station supervisor.

As MDB1 says, things can work well. But the staff who just fob people off need to be reported. So get the name and rank of whoever advises you to travel on, in case they haven't made arrangements for you.

Oh, yes. Quite. I've come to understand from viewing quite a few threads that public-facing staff members often don't have the power to do things that most people think they can.

 

[block6panger]

Without wishing to start a new thread, I was travelling from Euston to Headstone Lane last week.

This involved a London north western train from Euston to Harrow & Wealdstone and then the last overground one stop to Headstone Lane.

The first leg no problems, arrive a few minutes late but still with plenty of time to make the last train at Harrow & Wealdstone (I had left more than the minimum connection).

However, the information boards at the station and my virgin trains app state that the last train is cancelled. I struggle to find a member of staff but I call the help point. After ten minutes or so, they come back to inform me that they would not be prepared to provide a taxi as the train did in fact run much to my surprise. I was on the other side of the station and could make no comment to if the train did run or not.

I have submitted an email to TFL including my taxi receipt and a screenshot of the 'cancelled' train. Luckily the two stations are not miles away but I did not fancy a late night walk, and the cab was not too expensive at all. But that is besides the point as it was certainly not the best experience I have faced late at night.

I await their reply with interest...

 

[Belperpete]

Without wishing to start a new thread, I was travelling from Euston to Headstone Lane last week.

This involved a London north western train from Euston to Harrow & Wealdstone and then the last overground one stop to Headstone Lane.

The first leg no problems, arrive a few minutes late but still with plenty of time to make the last train at Harrow & Wealdstone (I had left more than the minimum connection).

However, the information boards at the station and my virgin trains app state that the last train is cancelled. I struggle to find a member of staff but I call the help point. After ten minutes or so, they come back to inform me that they would not be prepared to provide a taxi as the train did in fact run much to my surprise. I was on the other side of the station and could make no comment to if the train did run or not.

I have submitted an email to TFL including my taxi receipt and a screenshot of the 'cancelled' train. Luckily the two stations are not miles away but I did not fancy a late night walk, and the cab was not too expensive at all. But that is besides the point as it was certainly not the best experience I have faced late at night.

I await their reply with interest...

If they deny your claim under Delay Repay, claim under the Consumer Rights Act. Their failure to act with "reasonable care and skill", by providing misleading information, directly led to your being unnecessarily delayed and out of pocket.
See item 7 in: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/travel/train-delays/

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Us Northern onboard staff are very limited in what we can do. All I can do is make a phone call to our control centre and hope they are good to their word.

Look, my advice is this. Some TOC's are very good at trying to get you out of their hair. 'Cross Country' have a good record of doing this, or a bad record I suppose.
Do not arrive at a staffed station and then embark further to a unstaffed station if you have missed a connection due to late running. As much as I as a conductor would love to help, my hands are tied. It is the responsibility of the TOC who made you late to get you home, so please don't jump on another TOC's service and think they will be willing to pick up the challenge.

One jounney I had with XC involved two seperate delays, one was around Cheltenham Spa with people on the line (I'm guessing doing Pokemon Go) and the other was when some pillock pulled the PassComm at Birmingham New Street delaying the service further that the train was eventually terminated at New Street.

I had a word with the guard regarding connections at both Picc and Huddersfield who informed the next guard (who was on the platform) that I should board the next service to Manchester Piccadilly on platform whateveritwas. The guard (the same one on the platform) asked to look at my journey itinery, which they did and phoned through to enable the connections to be held. Got back to Huddersfield alright for me to get the last bus back home.

Can't complain though as I was offered by the said guard a free First Class upgrade and a freebie tea throw in too. So it does depend on the staff member though.

 

[ivanhoe]

Have been stranded a couple of times getting back to Loughborough from Liverpoil.On each occasion, Nuneaton where they arranged a taxi to Leicester and Nottingham where they laid on a taxi to Loughborough, I've been gratefully sorted. Station staff were excellent on both occasions.

 

[johnnychips]

Once got delayed late at night from Halifax to Donny years ago. Leeds put on a DMU for two of us. Not sure if it was an ECS move anyway, but there was a guard who did check our tickets. In general, it seems best to try and get things sorted at a ‘big’ station rather than waiting to get as far as you can, where there may not be many/any staff.