Cancellations due to trespassers

[trainophile]

Currently on our way to Kirkcaldy via changing at Haymarket. Only going for a couple of hours, mainly for the ride.

On checking our return booked Advance journey, we leave Kirkcaldy at 1700. However there are several cancellations on the east coast line for the next four or five hours. Luckily our 1700 is showing as running, but half a dozen before and after it are cancelled.

How long does it take to clear trespassers off the railway, assuming no-one has been hurt? Is this some sort of Scotrail coverup for lack of train crew?

 

[mcmad]

BBC story implies its a bit more than just a trespass.

Forth Bridge closed after person found on line

The main East Coast railway line is currently blocked because of an incident on the Forth Bridge.

Trains are not being allowed to travel between stations at either end of the railway bridge.

A replacement bus service is being used to ferry passengers between Edinburgh and Fife.

Police said they were called to the bridge at about 10:00 following reports of concern for a person.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49565937

 

[TheEdge]

How long does it take to clear trespassers off the railway, assuming no-one has been hurt? Is this some sort of Scotrail coverup for lack of train crew?

Not every cancellation is becuase the directors of TOCs are all Dick Dastardly and Snidely Whiplash trying to inconvenience you at every turn.

Any sort of disruption for anything more than 20-30m can start to cause unit and train crew displacement when they are either in the wrong place or out of driving hours. Depending on the specifics of each incident it can take from a few hours to the whole day to get it sorted.

 

[Alanko]

Is this some sort of Scotrail coverup for lack of train crew?

No, lol.

I can hear that tinfoil hat rustling from here.

 

[trainophile]

Thanks, and to TheEdge you make it sound as if I’m whinging - perhaps the Scotrail comment was inappropriate but I genuinely couldn’t understand why we were losing so many trains on such an important line if there were a few idiots wandering about on the railway. I guess it’s one of those things that just has to be worked around.

You must agree that to be informed at 13:30 of cancelled trains at 17:35 and 18:20 “due to trespassers” does stretch the credibility somewhat.

 

[JN114]

You must agree that to be informed at 13:30 of cancelled trains at 17:35 and 18:20 “due to trespassers” does stretch the credibility somewhat.

Not really. Again it doesn’t take much disruption to end up with crews and stock at the wrong ends of a line. If trains from A-B were cancelled at 1330, on some of the journey lengths in Scotland, then it’s perfectly feasible for their return workings to be 4 or 5 hours later when crew breaks and the ilk are considered.

 

[Flying Snail]

You must agree that to be informed at 13:30 of cancelled trains at 17:35 and 18:20 “due to trespassers” does stretch the credibility somewhat.

Would you prefer them to string you along until a few minutes before departure in the scant hope a train or crew will just happen to become available?

In all likelihood they have taken the decision to re-organise the schedule to something they know they can provide rather than cancelling a few services at a time and waiting to see. If the incident is cleared sooner than predicted they can always re-instate extra services if resources are available.

 

[trainophile]

Okay I am being totally unreasonable, was just surprised at the scale of the knock on effects.

They should make the trespassers pay the resulting delay repay claims!

 

[Flying Snail]

Okay I am being totally unreasonable, was just surprised at the scale of the knock on effects.

They should make the trespassers pay the resulting delay repay claims!

Someone on a bridge, odds are that it was a threatened suicide attempt.

 

[geoffk]

Do European railways cancel trains when there are people on the tracks? Lines are mostly unfenced and there may not even be an offence of trespass. (Suicides are a different matter, of course.)

 

[VT 390]

Is there a reason why when someone is on/near the line that trains can not go at a very slow speed of about 5-10mph so that at least something is running but it allows stopping quickly?
I know there probably is a good reason but I am not sure what it is?

 

[ComUtoR]

Down in DC land; they tend to cut the power off.

 

[Chris M]

You must agree that to be informed at 13:30 of cancelled trains at 17:35 and 18:20 “due to trespassers” does stretch the credibility somewhat.

Would you prefer them to string you along until a few minutes before departure in the scant hope a train or crew will just happen to become available?

The easiest way to resolve this sort of thing is to give a little bit more information, such as "due to disruption caused by earlier trespassers" or even "due to trespassers earlier, some trains and crews are in the wrong place." or something like that. It doesn't inconvenience those who want just a short and simple answer any more than the current wording does but provides enough information that those who understand a little bit about railway operations that the reason intuitively makes sense in a way that just blaming trespassers who left the line hours ago doesn't.

It all goes back, yet again, to the reputation the railway has, entirely avoidably, given itself for being less than open and honest and for generally hiding behind meaningless excuses. Even when they're telling the truth, people with a reputation for lying aren't believed when there is a hint of doubt.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Is there a reason why when someone is on/near the line that trains can not go at a very slow speed of about 5-10mph so that at least something is running but it allows stopping quickly?
I know there probably is a good reason but I am not sure what it is?

Running at extremely slow speeds can cause worse disruption than cancelling trains. Fife Circle services (I imagine as I've been to Scotland but not hugely familiar with the service) are better off being cancelled and then a full service can then be reinstated as soon as the line has reopened.
When the railway line is shut, not only is it to protect the trespasser, it is also to protect the police who won't have been trained in track safety, and will need to concentrate their efforts on the trespasser rather than looking out for trains.

 

[Mojo]

Is there a reason why when someone is on/near the line that trains can not go at a very slow speed of about 5-10mph so that at least something is running but it allows stopping quickly?
I know there probably is a good reason but I am not sure what it is?

That is typically what tends to happen, normally at least to confirm/verify the report trains are run on caution, at least on locations where it is possible for the trespasser to move out of the way.

Unfortunately on occasion the trespasser is occasionally intent on harming themselves and does not move out of the train’s path so the service would have to stop before them.

On occasion the trespasser may be in a location such as on a bridge, in a tunnel or over/adjacent the line where doing this is not possible.

 

[swt_passenger]

Down in DC land; they tend to cut the power off.

Yes, and a “well-aimed” trespass incident in the middle of the morning peak in SWR’s area will tend to wreck the entire service for about 8 hours, we’re pretty lucky if it’s back to normal for the evening peak...

 

[30907]

Do European railways cancel trains when there are people on the tracks?

Yes. "Personen im Gleis" appears on the DB twitter feed often enough. "Notarzt im Gleis" (ie emergency services on site) is more serious.

 

[fgwrich]

That is typically what tends to happen, normally at least to confirm/verify the report trains are run on caution, at least on locations where it is possible for the trespasser to move out of the way.

Unfortunately on occasion the trespasser is occasionally intent on harming themselves and does not move out of the train’s path so the service would have to stop before them.

On occasion the trespasser may be in a location such as on a bridge, in a tunnel or over/adjacent the line where doing this is not possible.

Indeed, in this case there was no option to run services past due to the type / location of this incident (eg. occurring on the forth bridge).

 

[tbtc]

You must agree that to be informed at 13:30 of cancelled trains at 17:35 and 18:20 “due to trespassers” does stretch the credibility somewhat.

Not really. Again it doesn’t take much disruption to end up with crews and stock at the wrong ends of a line. If trains from A-B were cancelled at 1330, on some of the journey lengths in Scotland, then it’s perfectly feasible for their return workings to be 4 or 5 hours later when crew breaks and the ilk are considered.

Would you prefer them to string you along until a few minutes before departure in the scant hope a train or crew will just happen to become available?

I'd similarly rather know a long time in advance.

I remember (in the days before RTT and mobile phones) how frustrating it would be when it was announced a minute before your train was scheduled to arrive at the platform that it was due to serve that it was twenty minutes late. Two minutes ago, the board said it was on time, but all of a sudden it's magically twenty minutes late. If I'd known in advance it was going to be twenty minutes late then I'd have used my time better (rather than standing at a platform, twiddling my thumbs).

One delayed service can easily have a knock-on effect hours later (e.g. in the case of the Forth Bridge, a delayed Edinburgh - Aberdeen might get to Aberdeen half an hour late, but the crew need their allocated PNBs, there's maybe then not a time for the southbound Aberdeen - Edinburgh service to get out of Aberdeen, there's then the question of fitting it in around services through Dundee/Fife... it might be six hours between leaving Edinburgh and being scheduled to return there... if the ScotRail staff know hours in advance of disruption then (potential) passengers can plan ahead. The alternative would be to pretend that everything was going to be fine until two minutes before a train was scheduled to arrive.

 

[Spartacus]

The easiest way to resolve this sort of thing is to give a little bit more information, such as "due to disruption caused by earlier trespassers" or even "due to trespassers earlier, some trains and crews are in the wrong place." or something like that. It doesn't inconvenience those who want just a short and simple answer any more than the current wording does but provides enough information that those who understand a little bit about railway operations that the reason intuitively makes sense in a way that just blaming trespassers who left the line hours ago doesn't.

It all goes back, yet again, to the reputation the railway has, entirely avoidably, given itself for being less than open and honest and for generally hiding behind meaningless excuses. Even when they're telling the truth, people with a reputation for lying aren't believed when there is a hint of doubt.

Trouble is that when the railway is totally open and honest they leave themselves open to ridicule by those who neither understand or have any intention of being educated on the matter: think snow, leaves, heat, balloons on overheads......

 

[class 9]

Thanks, and to TheEdge you make it sound as if I’m whinging - perhaps the Scotrail comment was inappropriate but I genuinely couldn’t understand why we were losing so many trains on such an important line if there were a few idiots wandering about on the railway. I guess it’s one of those things that just has to be worked around.

You must agree that to be informed at 13:30 of cancelled trains at 17:35 and 18:20 “due to trespassers” does stretch the credibility somewhat.

The XC Aberdeen-Penzance was caught up with this and was stood for over 3 hours, train eventually terminated at Edinburgh, so someone waiting for this train at Truro at 2100 would be affected!

 

[jawr256]

The XC Aberdeen-Penzance was caught up with this and was stood for over 3 hours, train eventually terminated at Edinburgh, so someone waiting for this train at Truro at 2100 would be affected!

Although, in XC's defence, that service was restarted at Edinburgh at 1115 with a different unit, so anyone boarding at Truro would hardly have noticed a difference.

 

[Chris M]

Trouble is that when the railway is totally open and honest they leave themselves open to ridicule by those who neither understand or have any intention of being educated on the matter: think snow, leaves, heat, balloons on overheads......

I think being ridiculed by a few people when you poorly phrase the truth is very significantly preferable to being intentionally misleading. Many of those reasons could be rephrased to reduce the liklihood of ridicule anyway. "Leaves on the line" → "Slippery rails caused by leaves on the line " for example.

 

[al78]

Trouble is that when the railway is totally open and honest they leave themselves open to ridicule by those who neither understand or have any intention of being educated on the matter: think snow, leaves, heat, balloons on overheads......

The problem there is with the media, not the railway, who deliberately twist the reasoning to make it sound as ridiculous as possible, for the sake of having a pop at an easy target.

"Delays caused by powder snow getting into the electric motors causing short circuits. The light powder snow is unusual for the UK and is the result of the freezing and strong easterly wind and very cold temperatures."

"Delays caused by wrong type of snow."

Which is most likely to sell newspapers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_wrong_type_of_snow

 

[class 9]

Although, in XC's defence, that service was restarted at Edinburgh at 1115 with a different unit, so anyone boarding at Truro would hardly have noticed a difference.

Fair do’s

 

[Spartacus]

I think being ridiculed by a few people when you poorly phrase the truth is very significantly preferable to being intentionally misleading. Many of those reasons could be rephrased to reduce the liklihood of ridicule anyway. "Leaves on the line" → "Slippery rails caused by leaves on the line " for example.

It’s never a few people though. If you explain to all the passengers the reason as best you can, only a small proportion will listen, meanwhile a much much greater proportion of the population won’t hear those messages, but will read and listen to the popular press, and no matter what you do and how you explain things the ‘red tops’, and increasingly others, will only pick the bit they want and ignore the technical reason. Suddenly you’re ridiculed to millions of potential customers.
As al78 says, it’s a media thing.

 

[221129]

The XC Aberdeen-Penzance was caught up with this and was stood for over 3 hours, train eventually terminated at Edinburgh, so someone waiting for this train at Truro at 2100 would be affected!

No they wouldn't. It was restarted at Edinburgh roughly on time.

 

[class 9]

No they wouldn't. It was restarted at Edinburgh roughly on time.

Keep up, already been mentioned!
Also the point I was making, was that knock on delays often reach far far away from the causes and last a long time.

 

[glenbogle]

The XC Aberdeen-Penzance was caught up with this and was stood for over 3 hours, train eventually terminated at Edinburgh, so someone waiting for this train at Truro at 2100 would be affected!

And no catering on XC trains north of Edinburgh - wouldn’t have been much fun for anyone on that train.

 

[Llanigraham]

And no catering on XC trains north of Edinburgh - wouldn’t have been much fun for anyone on that train.

Surely that is better than having no train?