Capacity problems Leeds

[Eric]

Will the new platform at the Western end be enough? Earlier today I was in Leeds attempting to get home when chaos ensued. Firstly, my train on platform 2c was minutes away from departure when my train was blocked by a train in front which didn't have a platform available to come in to, so took 2b, all well and good I hear you say but the train in front of mine was waiting for another train to come in on top and strengthen it. It was two pacers.

It took so long that I left the train trapped and got the next train some 30 minutes later from platform 4a.

This is slowly turning into a regular occurrence which must be frustrating for everyone.

I have noticed the 333s now departing from platforms 10, 11 and 12 in recent weeks because there isn't the capacity on the 1,2,3,4,5,6 side.

I'm sure platform 0 will help but is it enough?

 

[DarloRich]

I'm sure platform 0 will help but is it enough?

where do you suggest the extra platforms go? In the Aire or in the Canal?

 

[Bantamzen]

where do you suggest the extra platforms go? In the Aire or in the Canal?

Well as the body of the station is already built over the Aire....

But ultimately any expansion for the classic & HS2 is going to require some engineering over one or both of the waterways, and it isn't insurmountable to do just more expensive.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Both, obviously. This is another version of the Castlefield corridor in Manchester. Huge expense spent in London but apparently not supportable outside the capital.

 

[cactustwirly]

Will the new platform at the Western end be enough? Earlier today I was in Leeds attempting to get home when chaos ensued. Firstly, my train on platform 2c was minutes away from departure when my train was blocked by a train in front which didn't have a platform available to come in to, so took 2b, all well and good I hear you say but the train in front of mine was waiting for another train to come in on top and strengthen it. It was two pacers.

It took so long that I left the train trapped and got the next train some 30 minutes later from platform 4a.

This is slowly turning into a regular occurrence which must be frustrating for everyone.

I have noticed the 333s now departing from platforms 10, 11 and 12 in recent weeks because there isn't the capacity on the 1,2,3,4,5,6 side.

I'm sure platform 0 will help but is it enough?

But Leeds has just been recently upgraded with 17 platforms, I'm surprised it's having issues.
Is it because of wasteful platform occupation?

 

[Glenn1969]

The western end platforms are not long enough. Alongside Platform 0 there are extension works going on that have to take place before Northern can introduce 5/6 car trains because the current platform's won't take them.

There are capacity issues at the Eastern end as well due to inadequate infrastructure on the approach making it a bottleneck but I don't think they have decided how to resolve these yet

 

[DarloRich]

Both, obviously. This is another version of the Castlefield corridor in Manchester. Huge expense spent in London but apparently not supportable outside the capital.

yawn.

There are capacity issues at the Eastern end as well due to inadequate infrastructure on the approach making it a bottleneck but I don't think they have decided how to resolve these yet

It is going to involve significant land take and building demolition. That equates to price!

Is it because of wasteful platform occupation?

indeed. Before spending loads of tax payers cash shall we have a look at how we use the current station and make sure we are using it as well as we can?

 

[Tetchytyke]

But Leeds has just been recently upgraded with 17 platforms, I'm surprised it's having issues.
Is it because of wasteful platform occupation?

To an extent yes, with units sitting in the bays between the peaks to strengthen the peak trains. But there's nowhere else to put them, with Neville Hill being the wrong side of the station to act as a carriage siding. LNER permanently occupying a platform doesn't help.

Leeds shouldn't be having capacity problems.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The western end platforms are not long enough.

1 and 2 can take 2x333, 6 can take a full MkIV set. They're not that short!

 

[Bantamzen]

It is going to involve significant land take and building demolition. That equates to price!

The HS2 platforms are going to need a lot more demolition, new viaducts, road re-routing etc. Whereas some capacity could quite easily be built up alongside the new P0 needing only the demolition of the existing car park, which could then be rebuilt over the top. There would need to be some bridge work needed over the waterways, but nothing like the scale that HS2 will need.

 

[SeanG]

...with Neville Hill being the wrong side of the station to act as a carriage siding. LNER permanently occupying a platform doesn't help.

I would have thought that if capacity was really problematic, the LNER train could drop off all passengers when terminating, then run up to Neville Hill for servicing etc. Same in reverse for departures.

 

[The North Briton]

I would have thought that if capacity was really problematic, the LNER train could drop off all passengers when terminating, then run up to Neville Hill for servicing etc. Same in reverse for departures.

The problem with that is that, for much of the day, the LNER is arriving in 6 (or 8) at the same time as the next departure is leaving 8 (or 6). And what if the LNER is 15 minutes late? Insufficient time to run to NL and back, so you are then blocking a platform planned for something else.

 

[DarloRich]

The HS2 platforms are going to need a lot more demolition, new viaducts, road re-routing etc. Whereas some capacity could quite easily be built up alongside the new P0 needing only the demolition of the existing car park, which could then be rebuilt over the top. There would need to be some bridge work needed over the waterways, but nothing like the scale that HS2 will need.

but any NR work will happen in conjunction with HS2. Money isnt going to be spent on "thunderbird" type schemes before the impact of HS2 is known.

Leeds shouldn't be having capacity problems.

that is my view. At the very least this needs to be examined carefully and the real capacity problems identified. I don't think it is the station or the number of platforms.

 

[YorkshireBear]

There is some poor signalling practises in play as well which I view many times. Particularly on the TPE side.

 

[gazzaa2]

I went through Leeds a couple of months ago (Victoria to Newcastle) and our train got delayed by 5-10 minutes around Ashton and were roughly 10 minutes late leaving Huddersfield, probably a bit less. We were then stationed outside Leeds for 15 minutes and the train manager came on to say that we've missed our slot and therefore waiting for a platform. As if it was a plane or something. All this for the sake of a 5-10 minute delay earlier in the journey.

We ended up having to leave the train at Darlington and catch the next train as the service was nearer 30 minutes late by then and chose to terminate at Darlington.

 

[quantinghome]

The basic issue is that when Leeds was last expanded (almost 20 years ago now), it had 10 million passengers a year. It's now 30 million and we're back in the same situation we were in the 90s with congested platforms. "Use the capacity more efficiently" is all well and good, if you're sure there is capacity available...

There is a masterplan for redeveloping Leeds station, integrated with HS2 and including additional platforms where the current car park is. The phasing plan envisages building the new platforms first before getting to work on the rest of the station:



More info here: https://southbankleeds.co.uk/assets...ds-Integrated-Station-Masterplan-LR-v6-DS.pdf

 

[Tetchytyke]

We were then stationed outside Leeds for 15 minutes and the train manager came on to say that we've missed our slot and therefore waiting for a platform. As if it was a plane or something. All this for the sake of a 5-10 minute delay earlier in the journey.

It IS like a plane though. Miss a slot through a congested junction and you have to wait till there's a gap. On-time trains get priority. A 10-minute delay can quickly escalate to 20-30 minutes.

It's unusual to be held outside Leeds so long though. Usually the TPE delays happen by being stuck behind the stopper all the way to York.

The basic issue is that when Leeds was last expanded (almost 20 years ago now), it had 10 million passengers a year. It's now 30 million and we're back in the same situation we were in the 90s with congested platforms. "Use the capacity more efficiently" is all well and good, if you're sure there is capacity available...

The old Leeds was congested because there weren't enough bay platforms for the enhanced Aire/Wharfe Valley service. That service level hasn't changed in 20 years; the trains are busier but not more frequent.

With 9 bays on the western side, as well as pointwork that splits platforms 9/11 into two independently usable halves, capacity in the station shouldn't be an issue.

The eastern approach's 2-track railway is a bottleneck, but the station really shouldn't be.

 

[thejuggler]

A wider issue is the Aire Wharfe bays are now used by other services, in particular Caldervale services to Man Vic.

For as long as I can remember these have departed from platforms 8-12. I caught one yesterday and it was 2c. I have experience of a delay on 2c when our guard was delayed. The delayed service on 2c blocked the Lancaster service.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Thanks for the Leeds Master Plan. Won't it commit any HS2 train to terminating in Leeds? Assuming the HS2 tracks are, as it looks at 90 degrees to the existing tracks. More directly on the capacity issue what happened to the (IIRC) electric horseshoe to get rid of London trains standing in Leeds but being a Kings Cross to Kings Cross service?
I take Darlorich's yawn, the question about spending in different parts of the UK isn't new but having seen the amount of real estate sacrificed to Crossrail the question of why projects outside the capital are labelled as impossible because there is no free land has to be asked again and again no matter how dull it becomes. The figures seem unanswerable.

 

[hwl]

The eastern approach's 2-track railway is a bottleneck, but the station really shouldn't be.

Meant to be helped by TP electrification and better acclereation on 25kV than diesel.

 

[Sleeperwaking]

The old Leeds was congested because there weren't enough bay platforms for the enhanced Aire/Wharfe Valley service. That service level hasn't changed in 20 years; the trains are busier but not more frequent.

Except that ARN want to introduce longer trains on to the Aire/Wharfe Valley service (Class 331 6-car formations), as the existing trains are now busier to the point of crush loading in the morning peak (as I understand it from other threads in this forum - I've not travelled on one). This is one of the things driving the platform extension works - it's not just to support the current service, but to enable it to be enhanced.

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks for the Leeds Master Plan. Won't it commit any HS2 train to terminating in Leeds? Assuming the HS2 tracks are, as it looks at 90 degrees to the existing tracks. More directly on the capacity issue what happened to the (IIRC) electric horseshoe to get rid of London trains standing in Leeds but being a Kings Cross to Kings Cross service?

If the NPR scheme goes ahead then I believe the plan is to make a connection between HS2 and the Woodlesford line somewhere south of Leeds so that trains off HS2 can run into the existing platforms. This would allow things like regional trains from Sheffield using part of HS2 then stopping at Leeds and continuing towards York. It wouldn't surprise me if NPR also put a viaduct round the south of Leeds station with extra platforms, and to provide two extra tracks through the bottleneck east of the station. Even if that isn't currently on the cards I hope the HS2 station leaves space for it to happen in future.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Except that ARN want to introduce longer trains on to the Aire/Wharfe Valley service (Class 331 6-car formations), as the existing trains are now busier to the point of crush loading in the morning peak

1, 2, 5 and 6 can take the required length of train already but 3 and 4 can't, so some work is needed.

But that's about future capacity, not present capacity.

 

[class 9]

A wider issue is the Aire Wharfe bays are now used by other services, in particular Caldervale services to Man Vic.

For as long as I can remember these have departed from platforms 8-12. I caught one yesterday and it was 2c. I have experience of a delay on 2c when our guard was delayed. The delayed service on 2c blocked the Lancaster service.

Talking of the west bays, the track layout into P 1,2 & 3 is extremely restrictive as all trains using them use both arriving & departing travel through 1 set of points, so you can't have a service departing P1 at the same time as one arriving in 2 or 3.
I believe that the associated trackwork for the new Platform 0 will address this issue though.

 

[quantinghome]

The old Leeds was congested because there weren't enough bay platforms for the enhanced Aire/Wharfe Valley service. That service level hasn't changed in 20 years; the trains are busier but not more frequent.

Pretty sure the frequency is more intensive now than it was 20 years ago, especially in the peaks. There are 15 departures between 5pm and 6pm for the Harrogate, Wharfedale, Airedale, and Bradford FS lines. This is only going to increase over the coming years. Also as others have pointed out we need longer trains so some of the current platforms will not be able to hold as many trains as now.

Thanks for the Leeds Master Plan. Won't it commit any HS2 train to terminating in Leeds? Assuming the HS2 tracks are, as it looks at 90 degrees to the existing tracks. More directly on the capacity issue what happened to the (IIRC) electric horseshoe to get rid of London trains standing in Leeds but being a Kings Cross to Kings Cross service?

As it currently stands HS2 serves Leeds via a branch line at Woodlesford; trains going further north will bypass Leeds. However, work is ongoing looking at building junctions with HS2 in south Leeds and east of Leeds to allow some HS2 trains to use Leeds as a through station. I imagine this movement would be limited to services originating from Birmingham or Sheffield. (edit: edwin_m beat me to it!)

The electric horseshoe was an idea put forward by GNER. LNER's plans for serving Harrogate and Bradford might involve some trains coming into Leeds from the east. I'm not sure tbh.

 

[Eric]

where do you suggest the extra platforms go? In the Aire or in the Canal?

I don't know but it is only to get worst. Leeds urgently needs more capacity to deal.with the increase in passenger numbers and services.

What is pretty noticeable is that trains coming in off the Bradford branch, Airedale and Harrogate lines are being forced to stop and wait longer at the signals whilst the bottleneck is cleared.

Why they have now started stacking trains on top of one another and blocking them is an answer I'd like to know?

Surely it would be best practice to let them out first on time instead of stacking them with already late running trains and making things worse?

 

[cactustwirly]

How long are the turnaround times for the units using these platforms?

 

[Eric]

One final point is the platform staff could do with some retraining. Standing there and shouting at people to get off the train as fast as they can because they want to improve turnaround times is infuriating.

 

[Eric]

I went through Leeds a couple of months ago (Victoria to Newcastle) and our train got delayed by 5-10 minutes around Ashton and were roughly 10 minutes late leaving Huddersfield, probably a bit less. We were then stationed outside Leeds for 15 minutes and the train manager came on to say that we've missed our slot and therefore waiting for a platform. As if it was a plane or something. All this for the sake of a 5-10 minute delay earlier in the journey.

We ended up having to leave the train at Darlington and catch the next train as the service was nearer 30 minutes late by then and chose to terminate at Darlington.

My record is around the same on the Huddersfield via Bradford stopper.

Should of arrived at 59 and we were on time until being held outside but didn't finally get a platform and arrive until 15 past.

 

[Sceptre]

I'm pretty sure that the configuration of 13 and 14 are such that they could allow for another set of through tracks with minimal effort (although you might have to close the centre track between 11 and 12), which could theoretically allow HS2 to use 15 & 16, although you'd probably need to four-track the Marsh Lane viaduct too.

I'm also pretty sure there is space on the northern end for another bay after 0 gets built, which means you can shift a lot of the terminators northwards.

Also, personally, I'd look at reopening Cas–Garforth to cut down on the conflicting movements from 17 to the Wakey lines, although that may be a bit of a pipe-dream.