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Car ownership: does it improve lives or is it detrimental?

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The Ham

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I note there is more than one company that currently runs TV adverts for residential multi-car insurance.

Indeed, however the cost savings for doing so are fairly small in the greater scheme of car ownership. Generally little more than the admin saving of only having to deal with one person rather than 2 or more.

The risk doesn't fall to the insurer, other than they can be sure that some of the named drivers have their own car which could limit their use of the other vehicle.
 
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Vespa

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I own a car as I need it to get to work which is in the middle of nowhere, no public transport at that time of the morning or indeed any time of the day its not convenient as the buses go to the nearest town, for me to use the bus would require 3 changes of buses to get home.
I'm seriously considering buying a second car as a weekend/hoilday car and back up while my current car is a workhorse for work, taking stuff to the tip and odd jobs etc.

Depreciation is not an issue for as I tend to treat cars as a tool, so I'm not too worried if it gets dented and I run it til it dies then scrap it getting some money bsck usually £200.
I've never taken out a loan or HP for a car for 30 years

The times I use the train is for trip to London or other cities and buses to my local town centre.

It works for me.
 

jfollows

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It's hard to compare the tyranny of having to own a car to do basic things like shopping and working with the liberty having a car gives you.

I chose to live and work away from London when I graduated (from a London university) in 1984, and then I've pretty much needed to own a car from 1985 to 2018. My last job, in particular, I could not have done the same way without a car - 30 minutes to drive versus 150 minutes (two and a half hours!) the one time I used public transport.

But without a car I'd have done things differently.

I've pretty much always lived in a town or city so had no real use for a car other than work, and an earlier job required a car also.

After my stroke I couldn't drive and had to go to short outpatient appointments at Wythenshawe hospital. 3 hours round trip using public transport. Less than an hour including the appointment if driving.

My partner used to use the 130 bus to go to work in Didsbury. After my stroke he learned to drive, and had 60 minutes a day extra at home which had been spent waiting for buses and trundling through indirect routes.

But now I don't have a car, I don't miss it. We still have a car between us, although I rarely drive it - sometimes to take stuff to the tip, for example, which someone else mentioned above. I did go back to work and driving after my stroke, but after a couple more years I retired, and then I found my car wouldn't start more than once because of a flat battery through lack of use, so I sold it.

If I hadn't been able to drive, I couldn't have driven on holiday across miles of the west of the USA, which was wonderful. I don't think I could have hired cars without also owning them. In more recent times I indulged myself with more expensive cars than I "needed", but that's in part what having some money is about.

I used to be a cyclist, and of course I'm a pedestrian, and I have always thought that the balance of power between cars and others in built up areas is wrong in this country. It seems to work better in the USA. Is that because of litigation, or longer existence of significant numbers of cars there? Here too many drivers treat pedestrians and cyclists as irritants or even targets and get away with it. London seems to be better than either Wilmslow or Manchester in this respect, I feel that when I'm walking in London that the majority of drivers are more aware of me, for example at zebra crossings.

ON balance, I think car ownership has improved lives, but it leads in a direction of trade-offs which should not be made, and which have been. During my lifetime, since the 1960s, the design of roads and therefore the "interface" between drivers and cyclists/pedestrians has been wrongly too much in favour of drivers. I'm not hopeful that this is something which will change now, there are just too many words with no actions.
 

Bletchleyite

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I used to be a cyclist, and of course I'm a pedestrian, and I have always thought that the balance of power between cars and others in built up areas is wrong in this country. It seems to work better in the USA.

Really? It works much better in several European countries - the Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavian countries etc. But the US? The car is king there, you can't even walk in some places (people will literally drive to the mall on the other side of the road) and public transport is a thing you use if you don't drive, other than in the large cities.
 

jfollows

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My experience of built up areas in the USA as a pedestrian is that traffic gives way to you much more, for example when the traffic is turning into a more minor road at the same time as I am walking across the junction. In the UK I often get visible and audible abuse from drivers under the same circumstances, just because I happen to be crossing a road at the same time they want to turn into it, and also they often drive in a way to attempt to intimidate me and others out of crossing. I just don't see this in the USA, in general.
 

Bletchleyite

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My experience of built up areas in the USA as a pedestrian is that traffic gives way to you much more, for example when the traffic is turning into a more minor road at the same time as I am walking across the junction. In the UK I often get visible and audible abuse from drivers under the same circumstances, just because I happen to be crossing a road at the same time they want to turn into it, and also they often drive in a way to attempt to intimidate me and others out of crossing. I just don't see this in the USA, in general.

That is because the US has a different system of pedestrian crossings, i.e. "give way on turn", doesn't it? The UK technically requires this however it is not the cultural norm at all, so I'm not surprised you are getting abuse for walking out in front of people as it is simply not the done thing. It's just a different system.
 

jfollows

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I agree with most of the last comment, but I'm not "walking out in front of people", I'm already crossing the road when they turn up, yet still sometimes get unjustified hassle from the driver for daring to be there in the first place. I also find this to be less common in central London, as I said.
 

Bletchleyite

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I agree with most of the last comment, but I'm not "walking out in front of people", I'm already crossing the road when they turn up, yet still sometimes get unjustified hassle from the driver for daring to be there in the first place. I also find this to be less common in central London, as I said.

It is the norm in the UK (even if not technically legally the case[1]) that you don't cross the road unless a car is definitely not coming. So as I said I'm not surprised you are in receipt of aggression for this. At a junction this includes looking on the main road to see if someone is indicating to turn in.

[1] There are a number of UK road traffic conventions that aren't legally the case, the most notable being that flashing lights is seen as ceding right of way, not indicating a warning; that the Highway Code persists in stating that it means something that it practically doesn't is really silly and quite dangerous.
 

jfollows

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It's only the "norm" because of years of bad habits and poor driving, and it needs to change.

I was once walking on the left-hand side of a road coming up to a junction, and a car approached me from behind and sounded its horn briefly. It wasn't aggressive, and it demonstrated awareness and was giving me a warning that it was turning. I wasn't in the least bit offended.

But I thought about what I'd have done, had the roles been reversed, and I'd have given way to the pedestrian.

So my views are different to others, and I need to be aware of the difference, it's mainly my problem. I haven't been run over (yet!).

I still think the balance of power between motorist and pedestrian, in particular, is wrong in this country, and this is not a recent conversion of mine having sold my car! The design of our roads in towns and cities is usually about enabling cars to go faster rather than enabling pedestrians to go faster. I don't think it's right, but I don't think it's going to change soon.
 

Ianno87

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It's only the "norm" because of years of bad habits and poor driving, and it needs to change.

I was once walking on the left-hand side of a road coming up to a junction, and a car approached me from behind and sounded its horn briefly. It wasn't aggressive, and it demonstrated awareness and was giving me a warning that it was turning. I wasn't in the least bit offended.

That is absolutely correct use of the horn - audible warning of presence of your vehicle.

Shame that years of mis-use of the horn means that most people treat horn sounding as aggressive even when it is not intended to be. Cars need an equivalent to a bicycle bell!
 

jfollows

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That is absolutely correct use of the horn - audible warning of presence of your vehicle.
Yes, I agree, and I hope I'm not labouring the point by wanting to be absolutely clear - I had no issue with the driver's behaviour at the time, which clearly showed awareness.

It was just interesting to me, when I reflected on the event shortly after, that I would probably have behaved differently had I been the driver. It doesn't mean that the actual driver was wrong, in my opinion, or that my alternative behaviour would necessarily have been any better. Some people might have criticised my (hypothetical) driver behaviour as being unclear or confusing, even!
 

nlogax

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I still think the balance of power between motorist and pedestrian, in particular, is wrong in this country, and this is not a recent conversion of mine having sold my car! The design of our roads in towns and cities is usually about enabling cars to go faster rather than enabling pedestrians to go faster. I don't think it's right, but I don't think it's going to change soon.

There've been a few attempts in recent years to change that. Exhibition Road in South Kensington being the one that sticks out in my mind. Redesigning the entire roadway to 'blend in' with the pavements adjacent to the museum and tube station was a very clever bit of design that subtly rejigged that balance between pedestrian and vehicular right of way. Motorists tend to drive far slower and more carefully through that area.

Around here in recent weeks my local council has been installing semi-segregated cycleways. Where they cross sideroads both pavement and cycleway continue right across the junction, not interrupted by tarmac. This is really effective in changing motorists' behavior and putting pedestrians first. This trend will continue to grow as towns and cities continue to adopt local 20mph limits in lieu of a national law which doesn't yet exist.
 

jfollows

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It's a very good point about Exhibition Road, and nearer to me Park Lane in Poynton has received similar treatment.

I've read a lot of negative and vituperative comment about the changes in Poynton, but I suspect it's not contrasted by the views of the people who welcome the change. The sort of person who thinks cyclists should all have bells, number plates and pay some kind of tax tend to be the sort who make loud noises against attempts to slow them down in their cars for any reason.

As you might guess, I'm in favour. Must go back to Imperial College soon, I was lucky enough to spend 3 years there in the early 1980s.
 

Bletchleyite

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I've read a lot of negative and vituperative comment about the changes in Poynton

Vituperative? You win the Internet today for that word, I had to Google its meaning! :)

The sort of person who thinks cyclists should all have bells, number plates and pay some kind of tax

I wouldn't lump those together at all. I certainly believe all cyclists should have bells (or another loud warning device e.g. an air horn, though a bell is so much less aggressive), ideally a proper Dutch style "crown bell" i.e. one that makes the traditional "rrring-rrring" sound rather than a barely audible "ping", and would say this should be legally required as it is in some European countries. The other two, not really - the Swiss had and abolished both as worthless.

Crown bells are great as nothing says "cyclist" like one, which allows people to take the correct actions before even seeing the cyclist.
 

nlogax

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As you might guess, I'm in favour. Must go back to Imperial College soon, I was lucky enough to spend 3 years there in the early 1980s.

Sounds like a good excuse to get back to The Queen's Arms, though sadly it's still closed.

Crown bells are great as nothing says "cyclist" like one, which allows people to take the correct actions before even seeing the cyclist.

It wouldn't surprise me if the UK introduced a law for mandating cycle bells. They're not currently mandatory but they really should be.. that's going to be vital as more of us take to two wheels.
 

SouthEastBuses

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Here's my opinion about cars.

I think they're a good idea in big families whenever you need to do big shopping - I can't imagine, for example, a family of mother and father doing full time jobs and having 2 or 3 kids being able to live without a car. Carrying too much shopping can be stressful, and so the car here would be the good idea. Especially in rural areas where public transport is non-existent.

However, with that being said, I'd only prefer to use them for supermarket journeys, or for rural journeys where public transport is effectively non-existent.

Other than that, I much rather use public transport. It's better for the environment (yes DMUs and most buses run on diesel fuels but remember that they can take a good 4-5 cars off the road depending on the capacity etc) and it's generally stress free and enjoyable to travel. Of course, we've been using the car much more lately due to Coronavirus, but once the risk of transmission on public transport becomes low enough to be able to safely travel, I will be using buses and trains again like I did before lockdown.

So, in other words, it depends on the type of journey you want to make, but in my opinion (ok minus Coronavirus pandemic), I'd rather use public transport, walk or cycle where possible and only use the car as a last resort.
 

Jamesrob637

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Vituperative? You win the Internet today for that word, I had to Google its meaning! :)



I wouldn't lump those together at all. I certainly believe all cyclists should have bells (or another loud warning device e.g. an air horn, though a bell is so much less aggressive), ideally a proper Dutch style "crown bell" i.e. one that makes the traditional "rrring-rrring" sound rather than a barely audible "ping", and would say this should be legally required as it is in some European countries. The other two, not really - the Swiss had and abolished both as worthless.

Crown bells are great as nothing says "cyclist" like one, which allows people to take the correct actions before even seeing the cyclist.

I used to have a horn on my bike in my 1st year at Exeter University. Was great until the bike got stolen midway through 2nd year, horn and all!
 

talltim

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Though, one extra day's rental vs the costs incurred owning a car... still works out cheaper to rent.
It might not be one day tho. It often takes a few days to completely empty the car, also a few days to get it packed , because of being at work
 

Domh245

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It might not be one day tho. It often takes a few days to completely empty the car, also a few days to get it packed , because of being at work

I think the point being made was that unless the day rates are unbelievably expensive, or your own car ownership works out quite cheaply, it'd still probably work out in favour of the rental!

Putting some numbers to it however, after near enough one year of ownership, my car has cost around £8 a day 'all-in', excluding the cost of buying the car. Fairly low mileage, but some expensive repairs as well (and extortionate insurance as a young driver with very little insurance history), so I'd think it's a reasonable ballpark figure. That number will increase a bit when I come to pay for the next years tax and insurance, but shouldn't exceed £10/day I'd hope! Try and find somewhere offering those sort of rates on a day rental!
 

telstarbox

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Which is very much why I didn't compare to 100% of the figure from 1950 (395 km), rather I opted for half that figure (~200)

Even if we go for 1/3 (132km) then we'd need to increase cycling rates by 60%. However that would would be an average of 2.5 km a week, so wouldn't need many people doing doing that each way to work (which is fairly easy, especially given that e-bikes often have a range of more than that on a single charge) to cover for those who do a few km each month.
I suspect that lots of cycling isn't picked up the official statistics.

For example, before lockdown I was getting the train to work 4 days/week and cycling the other day. Using the Census 2011 question, I would be recorded as a train commuter because that's my 'normal' mode but the cycling wouldn't be recorded.
Also, more cycling takes place on quieter back streets, which aren't usually covered by the traffic counts carried out by local authorities or Highways England.
 

najaB

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That number will increase a bit when I come to pay for the next years tax and insurance, but shouldn't exceed £10/day I'd hope! Try and find somewhere offering those sort of rates on a day rental.
Even if at £50/day, that extra couple of days to unpack the car is still less than the cost of a couple of week's ownership.
 

The Ham

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I think the point being made was that unless the day rates are unbelievably expensive, or your own car ownership works out quite cheaply, it'd still probably work out in favour of the rental!

Putting some numbers to it however, after near enough one year of ownership, my car has cost around £8 a day 'all-in', excluding the cost of buying the car. Fairly low mileage, but some expensive repairs as well (and extortionate insurance as a young driver with very little insurance history), so I'd think it's a reasonable ballpark figure. That number will increase a bit when I come to pay for the next years tax and insurance, but shouldn't exceed £10/day I'd hope! Try and find somewhere offering those sort of rates on a day rental!

However you are excluding the cost of purchasing the car, that's a big element, even a cheap car costing an average of £365/year adds £1/day, conversely a last car costing £365/month* as £12/day.

That maybe £325/month plus a £1,500 deposit on a three year lease (or any other combination).

Whilst £365/month is high it's not so crazy that you'd only be looking at getting super cars for that amount.
 

yorksrob

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Vituperative? You win the Internet today for that word, I had to Google its meaning! :)



I wouldn't lump those together at all. I certainly believe all cyclists should have bells (or another loud warning device e.g. an air horn, though a bell is so much less aggressive), ideally a proper Dutch style "crown bell" i.e. one that makes the traditional "rrring-rrring" sound rather than a barely audible "ping", and would say this should be legally required as it is in some European countries. The other two, not really - the Swiss had and abolished both as worthless.

Crown bells are great as nothing says "cyclist" like one, which allows people to take the correct actions before even seeing the cyclist.

I think that now there are more cycle/walkways where cyclists are more likely to come up against pedestrians, mandatory cycle bells would be a good idea.
 

The Ham

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I suspect that lots of cycling isn't picked up the official statistics.

For example, before lockdown I was getting the train to work 4 days/week and cycling the other day. Using the Census 2011 question, I would be recorded as a train commuter because that's my 'normal' mode but the cycling wouldn't be recorded.
Also, more cycling takes place on quieter back streets, which aren't usually covered by the traffic counts carried out by local authorities or Highways England.

I'm not using national statistics data, I'm using travel survey data where people keep travel journals which would pick up those sorts of abnormal trips.
 

JohnMcL7

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I don't have any bells on my bikes because I found for the most part people didn't like me using it because it gave them a fright and quite a few shouted at me for using the bell. Instead now I hope people hear the freehub as I approach them and if not I just speak to say I'm coming up behind them which no-one has complained about.

Even though I rarely use my car a rental certainly wouldn't work out cheaper, my car does have low running costs and hiring a big decent spec estate similar to it is not cheap.
 

Peter Sarf

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......

Insurance, VED and deprecation are the big costs - others may be significant at the time (eg tyres) but not need doing regularly. an MoT can be had for £40 and the parts for an annual service are in the £40 mark too.

In my case I can add residents parking permit, just gone over £250.

When the non-car owner starts talking about cost of ownership, the person with the top of the range BMW or Mercedes isn't listening. Otherwise they'd be in a 10 year old Corsa

So true. I am driving a 26 year old Carlton. Not much depreciation - about £50/yeasr and falling. Choosing a reliable make and model avoids an awful lot of repair costs. My car is still more reliable than a lot of new ones apparently.

These content references to the mount of cycling 70 years ago are all very nostalgic but of little relevance to the present. I am sure that a lot of it was to and from nearby jobs in factories, etc., or to education when many went to their local school until 15.

Current patterns of residence, employment and education are nothing like that era and the transport task is far more complex.

(I am well aware that other changes, such as remote working and learning, may yet provide scope to reduce car travel again but that isn't much to do with cycling either.)

Sadly this is very true. We have turned our lives inside out.

My experience of built up areas in the USA as a pedestrian is that traffic gives way to you much more, for example when the traffic is turning into a more minor road at the same time as I am walking across the junction. In the UK I often get visible and audible abuse from drivers under the same circumstances, just because I happen to be crossing a road at the same time they want to turn into it, and also they often drive in a way to attempt to intimidate me and others out of crossing. I just don't see this in the USA, in general.

I get the impression that in a lot of countries the standard speed limit in built up areas is less than 30mph ?. I expect to see changes now that 20mph is becoming the norm in the UK.

Mind you, as a car driver, it is annoying when a pedestrian (or other car) forces me to stop. It is quite often a bit of an emergency stop annoying my passengers as well. I do offer pedestrians to cross if I am able to stop (a trick is that I slow down thus giving the car behind more time to do it neatly). Same for letting cars in. But different drivers are less considerate.

I am very clear on one set of problems though. People who rely on me doing an emergency stop. This can be because they do not drive (but there is no way of being sure). There are junctions where pedestrians step out to force you to stop and I can see that they are looking out of the corner of their eye to check if I am stopping. But car drivers do it as well. Usually pulling out of a side turning and very obviously staring straight ahead !. I realise that some time i drive a bit slow and that makes me look like a soft touch. I drive slowly in case someone less able than me makes a mistake - but it becomes a sign of weakness.

Another problem that persists is a cross roads near me with traffic lights. In the morning there is a cyclist that comes out of the side road and onto the road I am using. To achieve this they are going through a red light. It has happened more than once. The lanes are quite narrow and I have more than once had to take avoiding action. I cannot swerve as risk hitting a vehicle in an adjacent lane. One day I am going try and stop him and talk to him !. Some cyclists will very quickly resort to aggression if a car driver makers a mistake !. For my part it will cost me a fine, points and higher insurance if I go through a red light. It won't physically hurt me but I don't want to hurt or even frighten anyone else regardless of who's fault it is.

I agree with most of the last comment, but I'm not "walking out in front of people", I'm already crossing the road when they turn up, yet still sometimes get unjustified hassle from the driver for daring to be there in the first place. I also find this to be less common in central London, as I said.

Well the car turning in to the side road should be indicating. It does not help if they are breaking the speed limit as that mans you have to anticipate further ahead. Drivers that don't indicate tend to speed and NEVER slow down for speed bumps. But I would be very careful stepping out if a car is near enough to hit me even if they would have to turn into a side road.

It is the norm in the UK (even if not technically legally the case[1]) that you don't cross the road unless a car is definitely not coming. So as I said I'm not surprised you are in receipt of aggression for this. At a junction this includes looking on the main road to see if someone is indicating to turn in.

[1] There are a number of UK road traffic conventions that aren't legally the case, the most notable being that flashing lights is seen as ceding right of way, not indicating a warning; that the Highway Code persists in stating that it means something that it practically doesn't is really silly and quite dangerous.

Yes a pedestrian should not be stepping out if a car is in range - whether the car turns or not.

I think the point being made was that unless the day rates are unbelievably expensive, or your own car ownership works out quite cheaply, it'd still probably work out in favour of the rental!

Putting some numbers to it however, after near enough one year of ownership, my car has cost around £8 a day 'all-in', excluding the cost of buying the car. Fairly low mileage, but some expensive repairs as well (and extortionate insurance as a young driver with very little insurance history), so I'd think it's a reasonable ballpark figure. That number will increase a bit when I come to pay for the next years tax and insurance, but shouldn't exceed £10/day I'd hope! Try and find somewhere offering those sort of rates on a day rental!

Get a really old car with a reputation for reliability - result insignificant depreciation. Service it regularly - I have known people part exchange a badly running car when all it needed was a service.
 

najaB

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My experience of built up areas in the USA as a pedestrian is that traffic gives way to you much more, for example when the traffic is turning into a more minor road at the same time as I am walking across the junction.
That could just as easily be because of the fear of the crippling lawsuit should they so much as let the shadow of their vehicle cross yours.
 

Bletchleyite

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That could just as easily be because of the fear of the crippling lawsuit should they so much as let the shadow of their vehicle cross yours.

It's the convention and the law in most European countries too, indeed I got so used to it when I lived in Germany that on my return I almost got run over a few times! It might technically legally be the case here but it is not observed in the UK at all, so walking out in front of a turning car is very, very ill-advised - if all you get is waving fists and "the bird" you're doing well.
 

Peter Sarf

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It's the convention and the law in most European countries too, indeed I got so used to it when I lived in Germany that on my return I almost got run over a few times! It might technically legally be the case here but it is not observed in the UK at all, so walking out in front of a turning car is very, very ill-advised - if all you get is waving fists and "the bird" you're doing well.

Depending on how fast the bend is I would expect to get run over if I relied on the car driver being able to notice me and/or stop. In the UK a lot of junctions have railings on the pavement to stop pedestrians trying to cross too close to the junction.

For some countries the law is very much stricter on the pedestrian. For example I have been reminded not to Jay Walk - walking across when the pedestrian signal says red/don't walk !.
 
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the sniper

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Two things that surprised me about the US was how well disciplined the pedestrian are, even dodgy characters, which is even more surprising because of how relatively long it takes to walk anywhere that involves crossing numerous roads! In urban and suburban areas, a 20 minute walk crossing numerous streets can easily taken 5 minutes longer than an equivalent walk in the UK or most places I've been in Europe, largely due to having to walk to and wait your turn at crossing lights.
 
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