Card only payments due to coronavirus

[curtly]

Hello, I’m not sure if this should go in the covid forum or this one - however I feel the most knowledgable posters will be in this forum.
I noticed a post on Facebook regarding a local station refusing to allow somebody to travel as they only had cash and the station was operating card only due to corona virus. The gentleman reports to have learning difficulties and had to walk 7 miles to his home - the fare was around £3/4
Is this policy correct? It’s an unverified Facebook post but curious as this doesn’t sound right, and what advice would you give the poster?

 

[gray1404]

Can you please post a link to this post so we can see where it was and the train company involved.

Cash should still be accepted. If the train company does not wish to accept cash then they should be allowing free travel. Clearly the train company needs to pay compensation to the said passenger for their great failure here.

 

[RJ]

Where I am at is not accepting cash.

 

[Alex365Dash]

South Western Railway isn't accepting cash either, at ticket offices (for those still open) or ticket machines. Given that it says cashless payments only are accepted, I wonder what would happen if you tried to pay for a journey using a rail travel voucher?

Regardless to say, I don't think we'll ever find out the answer to that question.

 

[island]

A number of TOCs have stated they are not accepting cash payments for the time being.

it is unclear what should be done in these uncertain times with this scenario. I have some personal views, which are for the avoidance of doubt not said to be interpretations of laws, terms, or regulations. I would expect people not to make non-essential journeys. I would expect passengers who can pay by card to do so, even if that might not be what they want to do or normally do. And I would expect that TOCs not discriminate against or put at risk any vulnerable persons making essential travel.

I agree that a link to the post rather than a summary of a summary would be most helpful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

it is unclear what should be done in these uncertain times with this scenario. I have some personal views, which are for the avoidance of doubt not said to be interpretations of laws, terms, or regulations. I would expect people not to make non-essential journeys. I would expect passengers who can pay by card to do so, even if that might not be what they want to do or normally do.

I'd go slightly further.

1. If you CAN use an e-ticket or m-ticket (and I hate the latter as much as anyone) you should do that. That is the "lowest contact" option which should be the default at present.
2. If you CANNOT do (1), e.g. you do not have a suitable device (not you don't like them, can't be bothered installing an app or have some false impression that they'll cause your bank account to be cleared out), pay by card.
3. If you CANNOT do (1) or (2), i.e. you are not in possession of a card or the card does not have adequate balance to make the payment, only then is cash appropriate.

This is my view, not the rules, however I would wholly support it being the rules under these quite exceptional circumstances. Individual preferences are secondary to avoiding spread of COVID19. I'd love to go and ride around on nice quiet trains, but I'm not doing because that's contrary to what we've been asked to do to avoid spread.

 

[infobleep]

I'd go slightly further.

1. If you CAN use an e-ticket or m-ticket (and I hate the latter as much as anyone) you should do that. That is the "lowest contact" option which should be the default at present.
2. If you CANNOT do (1), e.g. you do not have a suitable device (not you don't like them, can't be bothered installing an app or have some false impression that they'll cause your bank account to be cleared out), pay by card.
3. If you CANNOT do (1) or (2), i.e. you are not in possession of a card or the card does not have adequate balance to make the payment, only then is cash appropriate.

This is my view, not the rules, however I would wholly support it being the rules under these quite exceptional circumstances. Individual preferences are secondary to avoiding spread of COVID19. I'd love to go and ride around on nice quiet trains, but I'm not doing because that's contrary to what we've been asked to do to avoid spread.

In hindsight, if only more flows had e-tickets enabled for them already. Of course no one knew what was coming.

 

[30907]

I'd go slightly further.
1. If you CAN use an e-ticket or m-ticket (and I hate the latter as much as anyone) you should do that. That is the "lowest contact" option which should be the default at present.

A small detail - contactless card payment (now up to £45) is - as its name implies - almost as low contact. Using a PIN pad is riskier.

 

[Wallsendmag]

A small detail - contactless card payment (now up to £45) is - as its name implies - almost as low contact. Using a PIN pad is riskier.

Or Apple/Google pay for any amount

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or Apple/Google pay for any amount

Depends on the retailer. LNR's ticket machines, for instance, don't activate the contactless pad for any amount over £30 (£45 now) so you can't. I'm sure I've come across other retailers where that is the case, and it does grate, because Apple Pay in particular is more secure than Chip & PIN, and Google Pay is basically the same level of security, the reason being that in neither case is there any scope for the PIN to be snaffled or the card cloned.

 

[theironroad]

Hello, I’m not sure if this should go in the covid forum or this one - however I feel the most knowledgable posters will be in this forum.
I noticed a post on Facebook regarding a local station refusing to allow somebody to travel as they only had cash and the station was operating card only due to corona virus. The gentleman reports to have learning difficulties and had to walk 7 miles to his home - the fare was around £3/4
Is this policy correct? It’s an unverified Facebook post but curious as this doesn’t sound right, and what advice would you give the poster?

I dont the whole story but would suggest refusing someone with learning difficulties to travel such a short distance during the current crisis, and when cash is not being accepted at many stations, is an absolute failure of empathy, decency and basic humanity on the part of the individuals involved as I doubt managers would have backed the decision if they'd known.

 

[trentside]

I dont the whole story but would suggest refusing someone with learning difficulties to travel such a short distance during the current crisis, and when cash is not being accepted at many stations, is an absolute failure of empathy, decency and basic humanity on the part of the individuals involved as I doubt managers would have backed the decision if they'd known.

This is also my view, there surely should have been a way round the situation? Even if that meant accepting the cash with necessary precautions (as I believe ticket offices at my TOC are doing if the passenger can’t use alternative an MOP) or even providing some form of authority to travel.

 

[Hadders]

Depends on the retailer. LNR's ticket machines, for instance, don't activate the contactless pad for any amount over £30 (£45 now) so you can't. I'm sure I've come across other retailers where that is the case, and it does grate, because Apple Pay in particular is more secure than Chip & PIN, and Google Pay is basically the same level of security, the reason being that in neither case is there any scope for the PIN to be snaffled or the card cloned.

Don’t know about LNER TVMs but the Travel Centre at Stevenage accepts Apple Pay - I purchased a couple of hundred pounds worth of tickets using Apple Pay just after Christmas.

Sports Direct don’t allow Apple Pay above £30.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Don’t know about LNER TVMs but the Travel Centre at Stevenage accepts Apple Pay - I purchased a couple of hundred pounds worth of tickets using Apple Pay just after Christmas.

Sports Direct don’t allow Apple Pay above £30.

My £2000+ car park ticket was bough with Apple Pay. As for Sports direct I wouldn't be seen dead in any of that fat cockney person of questionable parentage's shops.

 

[yorkie]

Hello, I’m not sure if this should go in the covid forum or this one - however I feel the most knowledgable posters will be in this forum.
I noticed a post on Facebook regarding a local station refusing to allow somebody to travel as they only had cash and the station was operating card only due to corona virus. The gentleman reports to have learning difficulties and had to walk 7 miles to his home - the fare was around £3/4
Is this policy correct? It’s an unverified Facebook post but curious as this doesn’t sound right, and what advice would you give the poster?

It's not correct; if this did happen as described, it's unlawful.

My advice would be to complain.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My £2000+ car park ticket was bough with Apple Pay. As for Sports direct I wouldn't be seen dead in there

I would be very surprised if they specified it. More likely is that whatever EPOS system they purchased (these are mostly purchased off the shelf) had it build in, just like I doubt it's only WMT's TVMs that have that issue but rather all Scheidt and Bachmann TVMs at least of that type.

 

[Nicks]

Many stories are made up for shock value. If true yes it was wrong but I'd like the back story which has not been provided. Why was someone 7 miles from home in the first place, especially when non essential travel is banned. How did they get to the station?

 

[father_jack]

Many stories are made up for shock value. If true yes it was wrong but I'd like the back story which has not been provided. Why was someone 7 miles from home in the first place, especially when non essential travel is banned. How did they get to the station?

Quite correct.

This sort of comes back to what has been discussed when TVMs aren't accepting cash. Funny how people miraculously only have cash when they board trains without tickets and are challenged.

Back on topic, there are people clearly breaching lockdown advice on trains at present, and worse again they are doing it for free. The dog on a string/ dirty JD sports bag/ dirty tracksuit brigade are out in force.

Gatelines are manned but are left in the open position, train guards have no ticket machines, revenue protection are stood down and 2 metres distance guidance stops anybody being challenged, even by the police. I was on a train coming home from work during last week and a bloke with a bottle of White Lightning cider was shouting at the other passengers and the guard how he'd cough in anyone's face if they came near him. And out the exit he did walk.

 

[LowLevel]

Quite correct.

This sort of comes back to what has been discussed when TVMs aren't accepting cash. Funny how people miraculously only have cash when they board trains without tickets and are challenged.

Back on topic, there are people clearly breaching lockdown advice on trains at present, and worse again they are doing it for free. The dog on a string/ dirty JD sports bag/ dirty tracksuit brigade are out in force.

Gatelines are manned but are left in the open position, train guards have no ticket machines, revenue protection are stood down and 2 metres distance guidance stops anybody being challenged, even by the police. I was on a train coming home from work during last week and a bloke with a bottle of White Lightning cider was shouting at the other passengers and the guard how he'd cough in anyone's face if they came near him. And out the exit he did walk.

Our BTP are certainly challenging people - they've had operational support units out and constables driving between stations to grab hold of ne'er do wells. Numerous arrests and several of them have ended up remanded in custody for Crown Court. 61016 is the magic number - far more effective than ringing the control centre. I don't think I've ever used it without some sort of response.

They and the home office police are indulging in a blitz on county lines smackrat types now they stick out like a sore thumb and they have comparatively little else to do. My home station has had several pairs of coppers (where they have appeared from I don't know) walking the platforms and concourse asking every single person their reason for travel and checking out any wronguns reported by the traincrews.

 

[theironroad]

Our BTP are certainly challenging people - they've had operational support units out and constables driving between stations to grab hold of ne'er do wells. Numerous arrests and several of them have ended up remanded in custody for Crown Court. 61016 is the magic number - far more effective than ringing the control centre. I don't think I've ever used it without some sort of response.

They and the home office police are indulging in a blitz on county lines smackrat types now they stick out like a sore thumb and they have comparatively little else to do. My home station has had several pairs of coppers (where they have appeared from I don't know) walking the platforms and concourse asking every single person their reason for travel and checking out any wronguns reported by the traincrews.

I'm not a lawyer, but don't think that committing an offence under the Coronavirus 2020 Act can lead to an appearance at a crown court or be placed in custody unless there are other more serious offences.

Arrests can be made and people can be charged and have to appear before (or virtually) a magistrates court where a sentence can be imposed, but I see no reason that it could be passed to the Crown as the magistrates have sufficient sentencing power.

Also, while train crew do have a an 'eyes and ears' function during this challenging time, and clearly there are some people taking the proverbial and ignoring the lockdown, there are justified reasons for using the train such asa relative having to visit a person needing care (allowed) attending medical appointments (allowed) and getting shopping (allowed).

Some train crew seem to be a bit over zealous and think they are judge and jury and look down and pre judge people without knowing the facts of a person's particulars reason to travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some train crew seem to be a bit over zealous and think they are judge and jury and look down and pre judge people without knowing the facts of a person's particulars reason to travel.

They're probably the same ones that pronounce obviously perfectly valid tickets as invalid because they happen not to like how they are being used, or who refuse things like season ticket changeovers and Hatton-Lapworth Gold Cards because they're "taking the mick" even though they are perfectly within the rules.

The railway has a small but noticeable and considerable problem with such people. It looks, to be fair, like a few of the Police Forces do as well, primarily the rural ones.

 

[LowLevel]

I'm not a lawyer, but don't think that committing an offence under the Coronavirus 2020 Act can lead to an appearance at a crown court or be placed in custody unless there are other more serious offences.

Arrests can be made and people can be charged and have to appear before (or virtually) a magistrates court where a sentence can be imposed, but I see no reason that it could be passed to the Crown as the magistrates have sufficient sentencing power.

Also, while train crew do have a an 'eyes and ears' function during this challenging time, and clearly there are some people taking the proverbial and ignoring the lockdown, there are justified reasons for using the train such asa relative having to visit a person needing care (allowed) attending medical appointments (allowed) and getting shopping (allowed).

Some train crew seem to be a bit over zealous and think they are judge and jury and look down and pre judge people without knowing the facts of a person's particulars reason to travel.

It's generally been people taking exception and fighting the police, then subsequently being found to be in possession of things like drugs/weapons/bags of stolen credit cards. Amongst other things we've had 2 police officers hospitalised as well as other assaults. There's been one case in the press whereby a 'gentleman' travelling inappropriately was escorted off the premises and then seriously injured 2 police officers, hurt a third, hit a police dog with an improvised weapon and was tasered twice and was found to have various illicit items on him when he was finally detained.

The other cases that have been aggravated are when those involved have spat at either railway staff or the police.

The correct action for traincrew to take is as always to pass the information on to the police via the appropriate channels and allow them to decide on the course of action to take. The only time as yet I've asked someone their reason for travel is when my train broke down to work out the best way to get essential workers and those with time critical reasons for travel on their way as a priority.

We have a number of services well used by the county lines brigade so we are quite well versed on quietly sending intelligence on the regulars until the trap closes. They tend to be less than friendly when it does. They really do stand out at the moment.

 

[father_jack]

61016 is the magic number - far more effective than ringing the control centre. I don't think I've ever used it without some sort of response.

LL I am glad to hear that is your experience, alas speaking currently and also from many years experience of "Be There Presently" a lot depends on the sergeant or inspector on duty. The troops won't seek out work unless they're commanded to !

Aside, I attended a work briefing and "61016" was on the agenda. It raised rather wry smiles as the TOC had changed network and those type of outgoing texts had been blocked for months.....

 

[Haywain]

They're probably the same ones that pronounce obviously perfectly valid tickets as invalid because they happen not to like how they are being used, or who refuse things like season ticket changeovers and Hatton-Lapworth Gold Cards because they're "taking the mick" even though they are perfectly within the rules.

It's pretty unlikely that train crew will be involved in such matters as changeovers or Gold Cards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's pretty unlikely that train crew will be involved in such matters as changeovers or Gold Cards.

I meant it more widely.

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm not a lawyer, but don't think that committing an offence under the Coronavirus 2020 Act can lead to an appearance at a crown court or be placed in custody unless there are other more serious offences.

The Covid 19 legislation doesn't result in a Crown Court appearance, however there are numerous reports in local press outlets of Police, both BTP and civil, "essential travel" stops finding people carrying drugs or having outstanding arrest warrants against them.