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Cardiff Bus

CN04NRJ

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Have to admit thought the Scanias from SBC wasn't going to see life again after the MMCs from BlueStar arrived.
504 and 505 have been working front line routes until the children broke up. 505 even had an outing to Salisbury to cover a breakdown. Great couple of buses. 509 has been withdrawn for a couple of months. 511 and 512 have been away from Swindon covering Salisbury/Poole so am unsure of what state they are in.

If you're a Facebook user there's some pictures on this group -

I've got some pictures that were sent to me privately of all the vehicles mentioned, I'll see if the person is happy for me to share them. The ones in Thamesdown livery look quite worn indeed externally.
 
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Gc1986

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Thanks for that have had a look. Totally agree the Thamesdown liveries look very tired. Will be interesting to see how they get on in Cardiff.
 

Cardiff123

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I notice that the Cardiff Bus app has now been updated with the new logo, typeface and colours. I'm not sure what the purpose of this rebranding exercise is and whether it's even needed. It's only 4 years or so since CB managed to get all of its buses into the half orange and half green livery. Until 4 years ago quite a few of CB's smaller, older buses were still running around in the early 2000s green and cream livery. CB finally managed in the last 4 years or so to get a uniform livery across the fleet with the older buses from the early 2000s being retired, and now they introduce another new livery, which is literally going 'back to the future' with an all over orange colour scheme, not seen on buses since the mid-90s. (discounting the all over 1 shade orange livery for the short lived 'Capital Links' CB subsidiary)

Here's a photo of the new livery (not my photos)

On another note, I saw the Barry Island flyer service (a double decker) yesterday heading back into Cardiff, and it was quite disheartening to see not a single passenger on it. I wonder how the extra summer holiday services have been advertised - unless you check the website or social media channels regularly, would you even know the extra summer services to Penarth, Barry Island and the Bay are running? A household leaflet drop would've been a better way to advertise these extra summer services, but of course that costs £££££. But I'm guessing Cardiff Council are providing the funding for these services, so it's in their interests to advertise the extra services they are paying for surely?
 
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cnjb8

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I notice that the Cardiff Bus app has now been updated with the new logo, typeface and colours. I'm not sure what the purpose of this rebranding exercise is and whether it's even needed. It's only 4 years or so since CB managed to get all of its buses into the half orange and half green livery. Until 4 years ago quite a few of CB's smaller, older buses were still running around in the early 2000s green and cream livery. CB finally managed in the last 4 years or so to get a uniform livery across the fleet with the older buses from the early 2000s being retired, and now they introduce another new livery, which is literally going 'back to the future' with an all over orange colour scheme, not seen on buses since the mid-90s. (discounting the all over 1 shade orange livery for the short lived 'Capital Links' CB subsidiary)

Here's a photo of the new livery (not my photos)

On another note, I saw the Barry Island flyer service (a double decker) yesterday heading back into Cardiff, and it was quite disheartening to see not a single passenger on it. I wonder how the extra summer holiday services have been advertised - unless you check the website or social media channels regularly, would you even know the extra summer services to Penarth, Barry Island and the Bay are running? A household leaflet drop would've been a better way to advertise these extra summer services, but of course that costs £££££. But I'm guessing Cardiff Council are providing the funding for these services, so it's in their interests to advertise the extra services they are paying for surely?
Cardiff has been loss making (I think) so a rebrand is a good idea, gives the impression the council still cares about buses
 

CN04NRJ

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Cardiff has been loss making (I think) so a rebrand is a good idea, gives the impression the council still cares about buses

The most recent accounts made up to 31st March 2020 show a small net profit of £52,000. A good turnaround from the seven figure losses of previous years.
 

507021

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I notice that the Cardiff Bus app has now been updated with the new logo, typeface and colours. I'm not sure what the purpose of this rebranding exercise is and whether it's even needed. It's only 4 years or so since CB managed to get all of its buses into the half orange and half green livery. Until 4 years ago quite a few of CB's smaller, older buses were still running around in the early 2000s green and cream livery. CB finally managed in the last 4 years or so to get a uniform livery across the fleet with the older buses from the early 2000s being retired, and now they introduce another new livery, which is literally going 'back to the future' with an all over orange colour scheme, not seen on buses since the mid-90s. (discounting the all over 1 shade orange livery for the short lived 'Capital Links' CB subsidiary)

The brand which is being phased out is fourteen years old.

A new image and desperately needed investment in the fleet may well attract more patronage.
 

CN04NRJ

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The brand which is being phased out is fourteen years old.

A new image and desperately needed investment in the fleet may well attract more patronage.

It's a real shame the current MD took over just before covid - there's been so much change there since I left that needed to happen for a long time.


Another year or two longer under the previous MD and I doubt the company would exist as it does now.
 

Cardiff123

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The brand which is being phased out is fourteen years old.

A new image and desperately needed investment in the fleet may well attract more patronage.
Well the brand may be 14 years old, but it certainly hasn't been carried on most buses for 14 years. Like I said, many buses on the routes I use were still carrying the early-2000s green and cream livery and branding until just a few years ago.

So maybe in 10 years time, the new branding and livery will finally have been rolled out to every bus in service. :rolleyes:
Although by then I expect TfW will have a much bigger role in bus services in Wales, with a TfL style operation possibly in existence across Wales. Welsh Govt have dropped plenty of hints that this is what they'd like to see as TfW expands it's role into other areas of transport in Wales beyond just rail services.
 

507021

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It's a real shame the current MD took over just before covid - there's been so much change there since I left that needed to happen for a long time.


Another year or two longer under the previous MD and I doubt the company would exist as it does now.

I have to say I'm really impressed with what the new management have done so far, looking forward to seeing what happens in the future.

Well the brand may be 14 years old, but it certainly hasn't been carried on most buses for 14 years. Like I said, many buses on the routes I use were still carrying the early-2000s green and cream livery and branding until just a few years ago.

I think it's likely the buses which have carried the 2007 livery the longest will be repainted first, so by the time the company gets round to the newest buses in service at present, they'll be due for a repaint anyway.

So maybe in 10 years time, the new branding and livery will finally have been rolled out to every bus in service. :rolleyes:

Ever the optimist, eh?
 
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Cesarcollie

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The most recent accounts made up to 31st March 2020 show a small net profit of £52,000. A good turnaround from the seven figure losses of previous years.

Which bit of the accounts are you reading? According to Companies House Cardiff lost £11.4m before tax in the year ending a March 2020. That does in fairness include writing down most of their assets to zero, which seems somewhat overly-pessimistic.....
 

Cardiff123

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I think it's likely the buses which have carried the 2007 livery the longest will be repainted first, so by the time the company gets round to the newest buses in service at present, they'll be due for a repaint anyway.

Ever the optimist, eh?
Ok I was being sarcastic, and I fully appreciate it takes time to fully re-paint and re-brand a large, fully operational bus fleet. But I don't think there was any intention to ever re-livery and re-brand the X and Y and 02 reg Dennis Dart's that were still running around on many routes until 2 or 3 years ago.
A couple were re-done but the majority were left in their original turn of the millennium livery, and turned up on my routes regularly (complete with worn out and tatty/dirty interiors). So for me, seeing will be believing.
 
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CN04NRJ

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Which bit of the accounts are you reading? According to Companies House Cardiff lost £11.4m before tax in the year ending a March 2020. That does in fairness include writing down most of their assets to zero, which seems somewhat overly-pessimistic.....

The financial year April 2019/March 2020 has a net profit of 50k.

20/21 is the £11.4m loss but curiously (?) it doesn't show the amount of funding the company has received. There also seems to be some complicated arrangement with the council with the issuing of £7m worth of shares in exchange for cash.

Someone more financially minded could probably explain better?
 

hst43102

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Here's a photo of the new livery (not my photos)
Looks like a Go North East livery!

Also - why is the signwriting all in Welsh with no English? As far as I know only 10-20 percent of Cardiff's population speaks Welsh...
 

GusB

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We really do not need a debate on how many people speak Welsh in this section of the forum. We've had quite a few of those in other areas. Thanks :)
 

CN04NRJ

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Looks like a Go North East livery!

Also - why is the signwriting all in Welsh with no English? As far as I know only 10-20 percent of Cardiff's population speaks Welsh...

It's Welsh on one side and English on the other. I'll refrain from commenting further other than as a Welsh person I wish I was more fluent in it.
 

Cardiff123

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Looks like a Go North East livery!

Also - why is the signwriting all in Welsh with no English? As far as I know only 10-20 percent of Cardiff's population speaks Welsh...
I doubt there is anyone in Cardiff and south Wales, regardless of their fluency level of Welsh, that does not understand what Bws Caerdydd means.
But as has been said, let's not get into a debate about Welsh branding in, umm, the Capital city of Wales...... :rolleyes:
 
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M803UYA

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The financial year April 2019/March 2020 has a net profit of 50k.

20/21 is the £11.4m loss but curiously (?) it doesn't show the amount of funding the company has received. There also seems to be some complicated arrangement with the council with the issuing of £7m worth of shares in exchange for cash.

Someone more financially minded could probably explain better?
Of more concern are notes in the accounts relating to the 'going concern' status of the business. Comments about overdraft limits being exceeded don't read very well and will encourage the competition to go for the throat. Of course Cardiff has a high cost base and restrictive practices which depress the profit margins, coupled to an incompetent management team that has to be among the worst in the industry, and I've worked for a few useless bosses in my time!
A change in control of the council next year might well spell the end for the company - the Conservatives have been making gains in the suburbs and if the council became no overall control, they'd press for a sale of the business. Surprised the conspiracy theorists haven't made a connection between Go Ahead loaning vehicles yet....
 

CN04NRJ

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Of more concern are notes in the accounts relating to the 'going concern' status of the business. Comments about overdraft limits being exceeded don't read very well and will encourage the competition to go for the throat. Of course Cardiff has a high cost base and restrictive practices which depress the profit margins, coupled to an incompetent management team that has to be among the worst in the industry, and I've worked for a few useless bosses in my time!
A change in control of the council next year might well spell the end for the company - the Conservatives have been making gains in the suburbs and if the council became no overall control, they'd press for a sale of the business. Surprised the conspiracy theorists haven't made a connection between Go Ahead loaning vehicles yet....

Now you've mentioned the connection... I don't think it's a wild theory at all.
 

carlberry

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Of more concern are notes in the accounts relating to the 'going concern' status of the business. Comments about overdraft limits being exceeded don't read very well and will encourage the competition to go for the throat. Of course Cardiff has a high cost base and restrictive practices which depress the profit margins, coupled to an incompetent management team that has to be among the worst in the industry, and I've worked for a few useless bosses in my time!
A change in control of the council next year might well spell the end for the company - the Conservatives have been making gains in the suburbs and if the council became no overall control, they'd press for a sale of the business. Surprised the conspiracy theorists haven't made a connection between Go Ahead loaning vehicles yet....
Given the present situation with recovery from Covid and the ongoing desire of TfW to takeover complete control of buses I suspect any sale value would be based on what the depot site might be worth plus an allowence for what some of the newer vehicles were worth.
 

Cardiff123

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Of more concern are notes in the accounts relating to the 'going concern' status of the business. Comments about overdraft limits being exceeded don't read very well and will encourage the competition to go for the throat. Of course Cardiff has a high cost base and restrictive practices which depress the profit margins, coupled to an incompetent management team that has to be among the worst in the industry, and I've worked for a few useless bosses in my time!
A change in control of the council next year might well spell the end for the company - the Conservatives have been making gains in the suburbs and if the council became no overall control, they'd press for a sale of the business. Surprised the conspiracy theorists haven't made a connection between Go Ahead loaning vehicles yet....
It's highly likely that Welsh Govt would block any sale of Cardiff Bus to a private operator, with Welsh Govt instead buying the business from Cardiff Council and TfW taking control of it, as has happened with Wales & Borders rail services. TfW will already be in control of Cardiff's new bus station/interchange from when it opens, with their branding all over it.
TfW taking control of bus services in Cardiff would give them the perfect springboard for gradually taking over all bus services in Wales. Powers over regulation of bus services were devolved to Welsh Govt in 2017/18.
 
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Dai Corner

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It's highly likely that Welsh Govt would block any sale of Cardiff Bus to a private operator, with Welsh Govt instead buying the business from Cardiff Council and TfW taking control of it, as has happened with Wales & Borders rail services. TfW will already be in control of Cardiff's new bus station/interchange from when it opens, with their branding all over it.
TfW taking control of bus services in Cardiff would give them the perfect springboard for gradually taking over all bus services in Wales. Powers over regulation of bus services were devolved to Welsh Govt in 2017/18.
I'm not sure the Welsh Government have the power to stop Cardiff Council selling the company to whoever they want to? ComfortDelGro (owners of competitors NAT) might be interested if the price was right?

It could probably make running a commercial bus operation in Wales very unattractive though.
 
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Cardiff123

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I'm not sure the Welsh Government have the power to stop Cardiff Council selling the company to whoever they want to? ComfortDelGro (owners of competitors NAT) might be interested if the price was right?

It could probably make running a commercial bus operation in Wales very unattractive though.
As Welsh Govt now how the powers over bus services and regulation in Wales, then I'm pretty certain they do have the powers to stop a sale of Cardiff Bus outright to a private operator.

But then if CB is making a loss, with many unprofitable routes, what private operator would want to take it on anyway? Welsh Govt definitely wouldn't allow a private operator to come along and shut down or impose huge cuts across most of the CB network based on profit margins.

All this discussion is academic anyway. Wales' most Labour leaning city electing a majority Conservative city council is extremely unlikely, especially if that can't even be achieved in Cardiff's much more Conservative leaning council next door in the Vale of Glamorgan.
 

Dai Corner

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As Welsh Govt now how the powers over bus services and regulation in Wales, then I'm pretty certain they do have the powers to stop a sale of Cardiff Bus outright to a private operator.

But then if CB is making a loss, with many unprofitable routes, what private operator would want to take it on anyway? Welsh Govt definitely wouldn't allow a private operator to come along and shut down or impose huge cuts across most of the CB network based on profit margins.

All this discussion is academic anyway. Wales' most Labour leaning city electing a majority Conservative city council is extremely unlikely, especially if that can't even be achieved in Cardiff's much more Conservative leaning council next door in the Vale of Glamorgan.
Actually, Labour only have a majority of one on Cardiff Council.

The Valleys Councils all sold their municipal operations to private operators, of course. It's interesting that they make a profit for Stagecoach, as do First in Swansea, NAT and the various independents whereas Cardiff and Newport don't.
 

Cardiff123

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Regardless, if CB is declared too much of a liability to keep on the books by Cardiff Council, the most likely model for bus services in Cardiff would then be the TfL concession model, which is what Welsh Govt wants for all bus operations in Wales in the near future, and this is the model it's likely to legislate for in this Senedd term. Local councils, or most likely TfW, will specify concession contracts and award them to private operators or local councils themselves to run. A wholesale 1980s style sell off of Cardiff Bus to a private operator is extremely unlikely given Welsh Govts plans for bus services in Wales.
 

carlberry

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As Welsh Govt now how the powers over bus services and regulation in Wales, then I'm pretty certain they do have the powers to stop a sale of Cardiff Bus outright to a private operator.

But then if CB is making a loss, with many unprofitable routes, what private operator would want to take it on anyway? Welsh Govt definitely wouldn't allow a private operator to come along and shut down or impose huge cuts across most of the CB network based on profit margins.

All this discussion is academic anyway. Wales' most Labour leaning city electing a majority Conservative city council is extremely unlikely, especially if that can't even be achieved in Cardiff's much more Conservative leaning council next door in the Vale of Glamorgan.
I doubt they'd have the power to stop the sale as it's just a company with shareholders. Again if the company wanted to shut down or cut routes they would be able to. The local authority could replace the services by paying for them (different budget!) or the Welsh Government could use it's powers to change how bus services are provided however, I suspect, it would have to make a global change not just in Cardiff.

Unfortunately the local authority in Cardiff has little interest in buses (running down then closing one of the best located bus stations in the UK, removing buses from various roads, little bus priority, constantly closing the central area to buses for various reasons etc) so the company might be better off in somebody else's hands, at least it might try to fight it's corner a bit!
 

Cardiff123

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I doubt they'd have the power to stop the sale as it's just a company with shareholders. Again if the company wanted to shut down or cut routes they would be able to. The local authority could replace the services by paying for them (different budget!) or the Welsh Government could use it's powers to change how bus services are provided however, I suspect, it would have to make a global change not just in Cardiff.
Yes, this is what's on Welsh Govt's agenda. As I said, the plan is to move to a concession TfL style model for bus services across Wales, with TfW or local councils specifying these concessions, and TfW possibly running services in areas where councils and/or private operators can't/won't due to cost. The 'Fflexi' service that they are currently piloting is another part of TfW's response to running services on routes that otherwise don't make sense financially. Welsh Govt would have legislated for these changes last Spring, but had to put the 'Bus Services (Wales) Bill' on hold due to Covid and Brexit dominating legislative time in the Senedd.
The Transport Xtra website has a great searchable archive on local transport stories, unfortunately it's behind a quite hefty paywall though.

Unfortunately the local authority in Cardiff has little interest in buses (running down then closing one of the best located bus stations in the UK, removing buses from various roads, little bus priority, constantly closing the central area to buses for various reasons etc) so the company might be better off in somebody else's hands, at least it might try to fight it's corner a bit!
I agree with this - Cardiff Council have made some appalling planning decisions in the last decade, and continue to do so. The sale of the former Cardiff bus station to a private landowner, for development of the BBC Wales HQ, that could have easily been located on vacant land at Porth Teigr in Cardiff Bay next to BBC Wales drama studios, is a prime example. The fact that the development of the new bus 'interchange' fell into such farce that eventually Welsh Govt had to step in 2 years ago and take responsibility for getting the new bus interchange built away from Cardiff Council says it all.
 
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Dai Corner

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What's the difference between a concession run by a Council and a Council-owned bus company?
 

tramboy

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... coupled to an incompetent management team that has to be among the worst in the industry, and I've worked for a few useless bosses in my time!

I would agree the previous management team were not good and responsible for the position the Company finds itself in, although, I would suggest the quote below by another members sums up the current position:

It's a real shame the current MD took over just before covid - there's been so much change there since I left that needed to happen for a long time.


Another year or two longer under the previous MD and I doubt the company would exist as it does now.

Surprised the conspiracy theorists haven't made a connection between Go Ahead loaning vehicles yet....

No one has yet quite sensibly suggested that as an "exact fare" business, any loan vehicles that Cardiff Bus could take would need to be able to take a cash vault - that limits who you can loan from (most people like their dashboards without major surgery in them).
 

duncombec

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Cardiff Bus* currently have an offer (until 16th December) whereby all single journeys that start or finish in Cardiff after 9.30am on Monday to Friday are reduced to £1:

However, implementation seems patchy at best. My host had been charged fairly randomly - to the point he wasn't actually sure what the rules were, and of my four journeys, I was charged £1 for three, and £2 for one (inbound). Some cash payers also seem to have lost out by dumping their money into the fare vault before the driver was able to tell them (in the case of two local teenagers, they wouldn't even listen to the driver attempting to persuade them to pay for each other, so they didn't overpay!).


The fare vaults seem to cause other issues too - on one journey was operated by an Omnicity, and you had to bend your hand around the vault to put your card on the contactless reader, then somehow scoop your ticket out of a letterbox-sized gap between the top of the vault and the Covid/assault screen. Not the most customer-friendly of designs!

* It seems as though this is actually valid on other operators as well: https://www.cardiffnewsroom.co.uk/releases/c25/28121.html.
Cardiff Bus, Stagecoach, Adventure Travel, Edwards Coaches and First Cymru have all signed up to the Cardiff Council scheme.
Not knowing very much about Cardiff services as a pure visitor, Easyway service 32A seem to be the only exception?
 

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