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Cardiff Parkway (Part of Hendre Lakes Development)

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Envoy

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I thought I would start a new thread on Cardiff Parkway - which will be the new station on the main & relief lines between Cardiff and Newport. Now obviously, this is also part of The Metro project to improve public transport across SE Wales but as this is such a significant development - which will also be served by mainline trains, I thought that it deserves its own thread*. This project will certainly have a massive impact on east Cardiff as it will enable people to access the mainline trains without going to Cardiff Central or Newport. * If you would rather this topic should be included in my South Wales Metro discussion - then state that this is so.

Right now, the pre-planning application consultation phase is taking place so many of you might like to read the documents and pass comment back to the developers.
 
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Brissle Girl

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This will certainly make rail travel more attractive for those living in Rumney/Llanrumney/St Mellons, for whom the slog into Cardiff, particularly in the rush hour, would make commuting anywhere by rail unattractive. Hopefully it won't just become as built up and congested as the area around Bristol Parkway has done in the 40 years since it opened, though if the rationale is to encouragement development of the area, then in time it will do.
 

cle

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How long are the platforms? And will there be four? Curious to see what ends up calling here.

Perhaps a morning London/Manchester/Birmingham (Notts) train for peak use, but typically I'd imagine the 1tph Cheltenham-Maesteg, and the 1tph Ebbw-Cardiff as standard services. A future electric to Bristol maybe - doubting the Portsmouth either, but that is hardly an intercity experience. Or the often discussed extras up to Abergavenny/Hereford. Holyhead an outlier too. Interesting.
 

Envoy

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How long are the platforms? And will there be four? Curious to see what ends up calling here.

Perhaps a morning London/Manchester/Birmingham (Notts) train for peak use, but typically I'd imagine the 1tph Cheltenham-Maesteg, and the 1tph Ebbw-Cardiff as standard services. A future electric to Bristol maybe - doubting the Portsmouth either, but that is hardly an intercity experience. Or the often discussed extras up to Abergavenny/Hereford. Holyhead an outlier too. Interesting.

My understanding that platforms will serve all 4 tracks and will be long enough for 10 coach Inter City Express Trains. Network Rail have plans to raise the speed limit on the reliefs - which are painfully slow despite being virtually on the same alignment as the mains where the limit is 95 mph.

The Ebbw Vale services would be the least useful for the people of Cardiff east as they do not go into Newport for transfer to express trains going to/from England. A new station is also planned east of Newport - at Llanwern - where much new development has taken place. It certainly seems desirable to me that an electric commuter service is established between Cardiff Central and Bristol Temple Meads/Bath. (Ideally, this could have also gone west of Cardiff to Swansea but of course, the wires have been cancelled).
 

HowardGWR

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I think there is a big difference between Bristol Parkway and this proposal, as the former offers inter-city type connections, as well as local ones. I could imagine a business train calling early, in the up direction and vice versa, once the locality takes off as a business area, but not otherwise. A highly frequent local service between Newport and Cardiff would seem to be sufficient to allow people to change at those places for the other services.
 

Dr Day

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It certainly has the potential to work both as P&R for commuters and leisure traffic (eg rugby) going into Cardiff, as well as for longer distance passengers from a wider hinterland heading to London, Manchester etc. The key issue is whether the potential demand is worth the journey time penalty for sufficient trains to stop to make it attractive, particularly if it isn't a franchise obligation to stop there. For commuter P&R for such a short distance into Cardiff needs a frequency of at least 4 tph, evenly spaced, I would suggest. The main lines and Severn Tunnel are arguably already at capacity given the mixed traffic on the route, so extra stops wouldn't be easy to accommodate in existing services, let alone new ones. There aren't many 'stoppers' anyway, and the journey time penalty of putting say the Cheltenhams (now Gloucesters) on the reliefs would probably push them over the minimum journey time threshold in the Train Service Requirement even with replacement stock (from memory that was based on 2017 150 timings),

The road access will also need to be very good, with ideally free and certainly hassle-free parking.
 

Parallel

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After its opening, I can see the Cheltenham Spa, Ebbw Vale, Nottingham and Taunton trains stopping there to start with. Maybe a couple of the IET trains will as well call around peak times.

I know this is speculative, but going forward, it would be nice if some sort of Abergavenny stopper could stop there, as well as trains on the mainline towards Swansea. An additional Cardiff - Bath would also be good, but Bath really isn't the best place to turn around a train due to a high volume of services (especially at peak times) and only 2 platforms with no room for expansion. Maybe it would be better for these services from Cardiff to be merged into the current Weymouth stoppers. Chippenham could potentially have space to terminate a train if they put down the tracks to one of the platforms, then there is also the scope for re-opened stations between Bath and Chippenham. All this is fantasy, of course!

It will be interesting to see what calls, though!
 

Envoy

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If you care to read the Transport Document - it states >

  1. The proposed railway station will have four platforms and will be served by eight trains per hour between Cardiff and Newport. At least one of these services per hour is expected to continue to London Paddington.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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It will be interesting to see what calls, though!

And your guess is good as mine! The Ebbw Vale trains are a no-brainer I'd have thought as they exist primarily to provide job opportunities for people from the Gwent valleys. After that, who knows? I do think that it's a good, well thought out plan though, particularly if the current 'temporary' traffic restrictions in central Cardiff become permenant, as I suspect they might.
 

Envoy

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Grand Union would like to stop at this station:>

 

Envoy

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And your guess is good as mine! The Ebbw Vale trains are a no-brainer I'd have thought as they exist primarily to provide job opportunities for people from the Gwent valleys. After that, who knows? I do think that it's a good, well thought out plan though, particularly if the current 'temporary' traffic restrictions in central Cardiff become permenant, as I suspect they might.

It is a very well thought out plan - unlike that of developments going NW from Cardiff where they have not planned where stations would be built should the old line out to Cregiau be re-built as part of The Metro project. (Right now, they are building new houses with no planned routes to such stations for the new residents, or indeed how present communities would access such a new line or have provided parking for more distant villages such as Peterson-super-Ely & Pentyrch). However, please keep discussion on that area under my South Wales Metro thread.
 

ValleyLines142

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After its opening, I can see the Cheltenham Spa, Ebbw Vale, Nottingham and Taunton trains stopping there to start with. Maybe a couple of the IET trains will as well call around peak times.

I know this is speculative, but going forward, it would be nice if some sort of Abergavenny stopper could stop there, as well as trains on the mainline towards Swansea. An additional Cardiff - Bath would also be good, but Bath really isn't the best place to turn around a train due to a high volume of services (especially at peak times) and only 2 platforms with no room for expansion. Maybe it would be better for these services from Cardiff to be merged into the current Weymouth stoppers. Chippenham could potentially have space to terminate a train if they put down the tracks to one of the platforms, then there is also the scope for re-opened stations between Bath and Chippenham. All this is fantasy, of course!

It will be interesting to see what calls, though!

The Weymouth services go onto Worcester and Malvern though (although not at the moment with COVID-19 timetables).
 

Horizon22

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If you care to read the Transport Document - it states >

One S.Wales express service AM peak service to Paddington would be perfectly viable given there are 3-4 minutes at several minutes on route for these trains.
 

tiptoptaff

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After its opening, I can see the Cheltenham Spa, Ebbw Vale, Nottingham and Taunton trains stopping there to start with. Maybe a couple of the IET trains will as well call around peak times.

I know this is speculative, but going forward, it would be nice if some sort of Abergavenny stopper could stop there, as well as trains on the mainline towards Swansea. An additional Cardiff - Bath would also be good, but Bath really isn't the best place to turn around a train due to a high volume of services (especially at peak times) and only 2 platforms with no room for expansion. Maybe it would be better for these services from Cardiff to be merged into the current Weymouth stoppers. Chippenham could potentially have space to terminate a train if they put down the tracks to one of the platforms, then there is also the scope for re-opened stations between Bath and Chippenham. All this is fantasy, of course!

It will be interesting to see what calls, though!
You can terminate at Bath, one service a day does. The set has to reverse in Bathampton loop, which is a few minutes out of Bath

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I don't think that extending the Weymouths is right because, as mentioned above, they go through to Gloucester/Worcester/Malvern under a normal timetable. I don't think a Cardiff-Bath is the best use of resources. Possibly the proposed Swansea-Bristol service could call. I can only see the hourly Cardiff-Pad IET being the one to stop, as they're generally quieter and usually have the Didcot stop in.

I'd like to see the platforms long enough for 12car 387s - which if they're 10car IET platforms they should be, to tie in with plans to run 387s to/from Cardiff as stadium crowd-busters now the Severn Tunnel is electrified. And once (if ever!) Bristol-Swindon via Box and Filton Bank are electrified, possibly a Cardiff-Paddington stopper via BTM and Bath would fit in well. As an extension of the Didcot semi-fasts, or a standalone Cardiff-Swindon/Didcot service
 
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Envoy

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I have received a Labour Party news letter through my letter box from Mark Drakeford. It suggests that a new Metro line could be built from Llantrisant via Cregiau & the new Plasdwr development to join the City line in Fairwater and then proceed to Central, the Bay before continuing via Splott to eventually reach the proposed Cardiff Parkway station. I am not sure how they propose to get the new tram-trains from the Bay to Cardiff Parkway but if they were to terminate, then surely this station would need a bay platform on the south side? (This has already been mentioned in the South Wales Metro thread but I thought it should be mentioned here as well given this is of relevance to this proposed station).
 

tiptoptaff

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It would need either a bay or a turnback siding - which there may be space for if they have to slew the lines for the island platform. Just extend the slew and put a turnback between the Down Main and Up Relief. Probably easier than finding space for a bay
 

D6975

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You can terminate at Bath, one service a day does. The set has to reverse in Bathampton loop, which is a few minutes out of Bath
No it doesn't. It terminates on P2 and goes back almost straight away from P2. I doesn't have time to go to Bathampton loop and back. The plan to put a trailing crossover in between Bath and the loop didn't materialise and it therefore isn't possible to reverse in the loop and go back into P1.
 

Envoy

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No it doesn't. It terminates on P2 and goes back almost straight away from P2. I doesn't have time to go to Bathampton loop and back. The plan to put a trailing crossover in between Bath and the loop didn't materialise and it therefore isn't possible to reverse in the loop and go back into P1.

Might as well send an electric stopper from Cardiff to Bath and then continue to Swindon with a stop at a new station at the sizeable community at Corsham. Such a service could even perhaps continue to Oxford?
 

Envoy

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Full plans for Cardiff East Parkway are now submitted. To find them, click this link for Media Wales and then click the red link within the article:>

Plans for the development have been submitted to Cardiff council this week and, should they be accepted, work could begin later this year.


Members of the public can comment on the plans on the council’s website, and the council’s planning committee will soon vote on whether to grant permission for the development, although it is not yet clear when.


I suggest that when on the Council Planning site, that you click NON TECHNICAL SUMMARY. On P9 of this summary is a plan which shows ‘Potential Emergency Access’ coming in from the east. I would suggest that this is opened up to form a direct link with Marshfield - even though the local Parish Council don’t want this as they fear it will attract more traffic through their village. Surely, it is not in the best interests of the railways to have another station built at Marshfield which is only a short distance to the east? I therefore contend that it should be made as easy as possible for the citizens of Marshfield to reach the new Parkway station by the shortest route.

Access and movement

The proposed development provides vehicle and pedestrian access points on Cypress Drive, Cobol Road and Heol Las providing easy connection to the areas surrounding the site (as shown in Figure 6). Three street typologies have been created. The primary access road is designed to provide a direct route to the station car park and runs along the wildlife corridor. The secondary streets will have bus stops, cycle facilities and local accesses to buildings. The remaining streets will be low speed, lightly trafficked areas, benefiting pedestrians and cyclists moving into and through the site from the surrounding areas.

The main vehicle access would be from a new junction with Cypress Drive in the north-west of the site, down to the railway station and park and ride avoiding the central areas of development. A secondary vehicle access point would be from a junction with Cypress Drive / Sandbrook Road.

Three accesses with Heol Las in the east are proposed and these are subject to separate planning applications. The ES considers the effects of the project with and without the two active travel routes.
 
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Horizon22

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Having the station completed by 2023 seems like something of a stretch.

The transport assessment also assumes "... that the station to be served by up to eight trains an hour between Newport and Cardiff and include direct trains to Bristol, London and the Midlands"
 

Envoy

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Having the station completed by 2023 seems like something of a stretch.

The transport assessment also assumes "... that the station to be served by up to eight trains an hour between Newport and Cardiff and include direct trains to Bristol, London and the Midlands"
As far as London is concerned, I think the desire is for those trains that start and end at Cardiff to be the ones that stop at this Parkway station and that 10 car platforms will serve all 4 tracks. Clearly something needs to be done to raise the speed limit on the reliefs from the present 60 mph. (I cannot understand how it can be so slow as they are on the same alignment as the 95 mph fasts with the same signalling).
 

Horizon22

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As far as London is concerned, I think the desire is for those trains that start and end at Cardiff to be the ones that stop at this Parkway station and that 10 car platforms will serve all 4 tracks. Clearly something needs to be done to raise the speed limit on the reliefs from the present 60 mph. (I cannot understand how it can be so slow as they are on the same alignment as the 95 mph fasts with the same signalling).

That would get up to 6tph indeed, although interestingly the main operator would likely be GWR.
 

cle

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Is 8tph including both directions?

8tph is basically all of the current service between Cardiff and Newport in one direction: 2 x London, 1 x Manc, 1 x B'ham/Notts, 1 x Ebbw, 1 x Portsmouth, 1 x Cheltenham and 0.5 Holyhead, unless I'm missing something.

Imagine it'll be 4tph in each direction. Ebbw was talked about going up to 2tph so growth these makes sense, unless it turns at Newport.
 

Doctor Fegg

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Full plans for Cardiff East Parkway are now submitted. To find them, click this link for Media Wales and then click the red link within the article:>

I suggest that when on the Council Planning site, that you click NON TECHNICAL SUMMARY.
I'm impressed by the direct Scottish services implied by the artist's impression on p2.

On P9 of this summary is a plan which shows ‘Potential Emergency Access’ coming in from the east. I would suggest that this is opened up to form a direct link with Marshfield - even though the local Parish Council don’t want this as they fear it will attract more traffic through their village. Surely, it is not in the best interests of the railways to have another station built at Marshfield which is only a short distance to the east? I therefore contend that it should be made as easy as possible for the citizens of Marshfield to reach the new Parkway station by the shortest route.
There is already a direct link proposed from Heol Las to the new station. It's marked as an "active travel link" which is as it should be - Marshfield is only a mile away (20 minutes' walk, 5 minutes' cycle). There is no need for a direct motor vehicle link over such a short distance.
 

Yindee8191

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Is 8tph including both directions?

8tph is basically all of the current service between Cardiff and Newport in one direction: 2 x London, 1 x Manc, 1 x B'ham/Notts, 1 x Ebbw, 1 x Portsmouth, 1 x Cheltenham and 0.5 Holyhead, unless I'm missing something.

Imagine it'll be 4tph in each direction. Ebbw was talked about going up to 2tph so growth these makes sense, unless it turns at Newport.
You are missing something - there’s one Taunton per hour in addition to the Portsmouth. Presumably that would stop as well as it’s essentially a semi-fast (although it runs on the fast lines so I’m not sure about the practicalities).
 

tiptoptaff

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As far as London is concerned, I think the desire is for those trains that start and end at Cardiff to be the ones that stop at this Parkway station and that 10 car platforms will serve all 4 tracks. Clearly something needs to be done to raise the speed limit on the reliefs from the present 60 mph. (I cannot understand how it can be so slow as they are on the same alignment as the 95 mph fasts with the same signalling).
A lot to do with pathing of freight on the reliefs. Hard to get a 5mph in/out of Wentloog, Pengam and Cardiff Tidal on a 60mph line, let alone a 95+ one. But, currently as the lions share of reliefs traffic is freight, its not a massive problem. Aren't all that many passenger trains booked along the reliefs. I accept that this may change with Cardiff P'way. And, as eveything is pathed at 60 between Newport and Cardiff, if you slot a freight in ahead of a passenger train, it doesn't get in the way, as they can both only do 60. Add a station stop in there too....I think 75 would be a fair solution.

Work needs to be focused on the Newport to STJ side - sections of that are still 40mph. That needs raising to 60 as a minimum. Newport to Llanwern is still fairly busy with trains in and out of East Usk and Llanwern East/West so jacking that up makes getting those long, heavy freights in and out more difficult.

You are missing something - there’s one Taunton per hour in addition to the Portsmouth. Presumably that would stop as well as it’s essentially a semi-fast (although it runs on the fast lines so I’m not sure about the practicalities).
The Taunton is a "stopper" in as much as they all stop at Filton and STJ as a minimum, and most call most stations between Bristol and Taunton/Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance/whereveritsbeenextendedtothisweek. It would be logical for the Taunton to be the one that stops. I can see the Cardiff/London terminators calling, as they're usually quieter than the Swansea/West Wales services. Can't see GWR wanting to slow down the busier Londons and the Cardiff/Pompeys.

Ideal for the new "electric local" between Cardiff, Bristol, Bath and Swindon using 387s when it starts - but that's a rumour you haven't heard from me....
 
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cle

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Ideal for the new "electric local" between Cardiff, Bristol, Bath and Swindon using 387s when it starts - but that's a rumour you haven't heard from me....
How about wires along that route first? A 387 could only run to Swindon via Parkway - and not down into Bristol TM either. Pretty pointless at the moment.

May as well run an electric hourly/2tph shuttle from Bristol Parkway to Cardiff and mop up all the local stops - and keep some of the regionals faster.
 

tiptoptaff

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How about wires along that route first? A 387 could only run to Swindon via Parkway - and not down into Bristol TM either. Pretty pointless at the moment.

May as well run an electric hourly/2tph shuttle from Bristol Parkway to Cardiff and mop up all the local stops - and keep some of the regionals faster.
Indeed, wires are needed. Not an if, but a when....
 

Yindee8191

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Indeed, wires are needed. Not an if, but a when....
I certainly hope they get on and authorise it soon, half the piles are in between Chippenham and Bath anyway. Also, wiring up a complex station like Bristol Temple Meads (BRI) makes XC electrification look more attractive (doing the Filton Bank has the same effect).
 
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tiptoptaff

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I certainly hope they get on and authorise it soon, half the piles are in between Chippenham and Bath anyway. Also, wiring up a complex station like BTM makes XC electrification look more attractive (doing the Filton Bank has the same effect).
They didn't want to do the wires at Bristol Temple Meads (BRI) before the works on the east end, which are happening this summer. Infill down Filton Bank seems most likely next, then on to Thingley
 
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