Cardiff - Swansea Electrification Cancelled!

[allaction]

A report in the Western Mail today - and also on the Wales Online website - quotes UK Transport Secretary Chris Grayling stating that electrification will not progress past Cardiff during the lifetime of this current Parliament.

He says that train times and seating capacity will not be affected west of Cardiff as they will be served by bimodal trains under diesel power.

Interestingly, too, for those of us in Tenby he says "I'm asking... them to ensure services from Pembroke Dock to London via Carmarthen are on new, state of the art Intercity Express Trains."

Previously they were going to be withdrawn as the tunnel at Narberth is too small for the new trains. So what has changed? It's good news for Tenby, though...

 

[Chester1]

Probably the first of several such announcements, as part of the CP6 HLOS process.
The phrase "needless disruption" is telling.
The future is evidently bi-mode.

I think the other key argument he has used is that there is no material difference in journey times on this route. This does not apply to the Valleys Lines which are not mentioned, which is vaugely encouraging. I think the only way that electrification will go ahead from 2020 is if its part of devolved projects allowing NR to share the risk.

 

[Envoy]

It is reported that electrification between Cardiff and Swansea has been cancelled. The good news is that Chris Grayling would like to see the new Intercity Express Trains operating all the way through to Pembroke Dock via Carmarthen. Perhaps someone had better tell him that there is the slight problem of the Narberth Tunnel - which has a tight curve and therefore unlikely to be suitable for the new Hitachi trains? Just shows how much he knows about running a railway?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busine...electrification-swansea-cardiff-been-13357575

He added: “I’m also asking them to look at improvements to Cardiff and Swansea stations and to ensure services from Pembroke Dock to London via Carmarthen are on new, state of the art Intercity Express trains.”

I also note that he says that in diesel mode, the new trains will be just as fast as they would have been had they had electric traction due to the speed limits on this line. Well, I always thought that the main savings were from the faster acceleration when using electric mode and being as this section of line has stops at Bridgend, Neath and Port Talbot, it would have made a difference?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-40665659

Mr Grayling committed to 40% more seats on rush-hour journeys between Swansea and Cardiff.
"The speed limit on the Swansea-Cardiff route is such that the new fleet of trains will be doing the route in exactly the same amount of time as they would be on a fully-electrified route," he told the newspaper.
"So it means the things people care about most (getting there on time and finding a seat) are delivered without the bother of what they care about least (how their trains are powered)."

Of course, it is typical that such announcements are made just before the main summer holidays - when they think that they can all bugger off to wherever and all will be forgotten by the autumn.

 

[rf_ioliver]

I guess this also means *all* west of Cardiff electrification for the Valley Lines is gone too (and Ebbw Vale?); though to be honest I have no idea of what the current state of plans for the Valley Line is other than hoping for for pacers from somewhere.

<sarcasm on>
In other news, Belfast Londonderry is going to be upgraded to TGV standards
<sarcasm off>

t.

Ian

 

[CapitalStar378]

So the south Wales mainline is stuck with bi-modes for ever then, or at least every hourly Swansea train. What does this mean for Maliphant depot if it's not going to be located on an electric railway?

 

[Mintona]

This is putting a lot of faith in an as yet untested design.

 

[A0wen]

It is reported that electrification between Cardiff and Swansea has been cancelled. The good news is that Chris Grayling would like to see the new Intercity Express Trains operating all the way through to Pembroke Dock via Carmarthen. Perhaps someone had better tell him that there is the slight problem of the Narberth Tunnel - which has a tight curve and therefore unlikely to be suitable for the new Hitachi trains? Just shows how much he knows about running a railway?

Are the new units significantly different to HSTs in terms of dimensions and loading gauge? HSTs make it to Pembroke Dock already, so unless the new units have significantly different dimensions - and that would introduce its own problems on other parts of the network - this may not be a problem.

And I'm not sure why you expect the Secretary of State for Transport to know about the minutae of running a railway. That's why they employ engineers and managers.

I hate to break it to you, but Nye Bevan, allegedly father of the NHS was not qualified to conduct surgery on a human - does that mean he should not have been Minister of State for health?

 

[A0wen]

This is putting a lot of faith in an as yet untested design.

On the positive side, it's Japanese technology so it should work, should be reliable and won't have an emissions cheat device fitted.

 

[Pacerpilot]

Are the new units significantly different to HSTs in terms of dimensions and loading gauge? HSTs make it to Pembroke Dock already, so unless the new units have significantly different dimensions - and that would introduce its own problems on other parts of the network - this may not be a problem.

Each vehicle is 3m longer than a HST trailer. Narberth tunnel is extremely narrow as well as having a significant curve so the end swing created by the increased vehicle length may well be a problem.

 

[PaulHarding150]

though to be honest I have no idea of what the current state of plans for the Valley Line is other than hoping for for pacers from somewhere.

Nor does anyone, including the Welsh Government!

This morning the Welsh Government has said electrification of the Valleys will go ahead with Metro as planned despite today's news.

But remember we have no concrete plans whatsoever for that.

 

[Reliablebeam]

Well there we have it, the tories just don't do trains, or Wales for that matter.

Can someone explain to me why the rest of Europe, Japan, Korea, and even India have extensivley electrified railways and our government keeps running from it? Is this something to do with the fall in oil prices? Are we going to be scrambling to electrify again when the oil goes up and these gas guzzling bimodes start hurting the bottom line?

I appreciate that a lot of the spotting community dislikes electric trains so I'm sure this is good news for them.

They make me sick these tories they really do. I have voted for them in the past what was I thinking?

Just a quick edit to say Im very sorry to hear of some of the cutbacks in England!

 

[87015]

Well there we have it, the tories just don't do trains, or Wales for that matter.

Got to pay for the Gospel Oak to Barking wires somehow, only so much money in the pot...

 

[Reliablebeam]

Got to pay for the Gospel Oak to Barking wires somehow, only so much money in the pot...

Indeed!

 

[Envoy]

Well, if the electric metro goes ahead and it uses 25Kv, we could have the extraordinary position of having the Vale of Glamorgan Coast Line electrified via Rhoose (Cardiff Airport) to Bridgend and possibly the main line not wired. I always thought that the main case for electrifying to Swansea was the fact that as part of the so called ‘metro’, the mainline would be wired to Bridgend and then up the Maesteg branch. That would only leave about 20 miles or so of the main line to electrify to Swansea. So, as per the original plans, by electrifying all the way to Swansea, it would have saved on the additional costs of having to have bi-mode trains for most of the Hitachi trains on this route.

Surely, it would make sense to electrify to Swansea and eventually send the bi-mode trains to Cross Country to replace the Voyagers? Then, more Hitachi all electrics (apart from the 1 emergency diesel engine) could come into service on the south Wales route? I say this because it surely is imperative that diesel traction is removed as soon as possible from Birmingham New Street due to the dangerous levels of fumes at this station. Cross Country also run to areas such as Cornwall/Aberdeen where electrification is not going to happen for a long time. Perhaps the contract drawn up by the Government with Hitachi does not permit the swapping out of trains?

It is not just for the London trains that the Cardiff to Swansea line should have been electrified. The route also carries local trains that stop at the smaller stations in this heavily populated area. Indeed, the greatest bang for the buck would have been to have had electric trains linking Swansea with Bristol/Bath serving all the intermediate stations such as that proposed for St.Mellons. (A south Wales / Severnside service that would have incorporated the south Wales and Bristol metro areas).

Perhaps the Government figured that they would 'punish' the people of south Wales because they voted Labour? Wonder if the situation would have been the same had won Bridgend and retained Gower?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Each vehicle is 3m longer than a HST trailer. Narberth tunnel is extremely narrow as well as having a significant curve so the end swing created by the increased vehicle length may well be a problem.

They are 26m vehicles, but the bogie centres have been placed such that they shouldn't cause any significant gauging issues.

FWIW, vehicles have been growing steadily on the quiet anyway. Pendolino intermediate coaches are 24m and the end coaches 25m, and they aren't even tapered in unlike 800s, they are near completely squared off, very European in appearance.

 

[A0wen]

Well there we have it, the tories just don't do trains, or Wales for that matter.

Can someone explain to me why the rest of Europe, Japan, Korea, and even India have extensivley electrified railways and our government keeps running from it? Is this something to do with the fall in oil prices? Are we going to be scrambling to electrify again when the oil goes up and these gas guzzling bimodes start hurting the bottom line?

I appreciate that a lot of the spotting community dislikes electric trains so I'm sure this is good news for them.

They make me sick these tories they really do. I have voted for them in the past what was I thinking?

Just a quick edit to say Im very sorry to hear of some of the cutbacks in England!

I think you need to go away and do some research before posting incorrect assertions about the UK's railways in comparison to others:

The UK has about 40% of its network electrified
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_electrification_in_Great_Britain

India has about 45% of its network electrified
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Railways

France has about 50% of its network electrified.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_France

Germany has about 48% of its network electrified.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Germany

Japan's is much higher at 71% as is Korea at 69%

So in much of Europe less than 50% of the network electrified is not uncommon - yes some countries such as Switzerland have a much higher proportion but equally the total Swiss network is just over 3000 miles which is roughly the same as the electrified network in the UK - and the UK has the same again and a bit more which isn't electrified.

 

[PaulHarding150]

Well, if the electric metro goes ahead and it uses 25Kv, we could have the extraordinary position of having the Vale of Glamorgan Coast Line electrified via Rhoose (Cardiff Airport) to Bridgend and possibly the main line not wired. I always thought that the main case for electrifying to Swansea was the fact that as part of the so called ‘metro’, the mainline would be wired to Bridgend and then up the Maesteg branch. That would only leave about 20 miles or so of the main line to electrify to Swansea. So, as per the original plans, by electrifying all the way to Swansea, it would have saved on the additional costs of having to have bi-mode trains for most of the Hitachi trains on this route.

This was confirmed to me by a rail minister in the Coalition as part of the reason for putting the wires up from Cardiff - Swansea.

Today's decision is a real slap in the face and it's only made worse by the number of times Cameron, Crabb, Carines et al had promised to take them to Swansea.

Wonder if the situation would have been the same had won Bridgend and retained Gower?

Gower is an interesting one. Previously the most marginal seat in the country, won by the Conservatives by just 27 votes for the first time in over a century. Was hugely symbolic to the Cameron modernisation project of the Conservatives. Guss the Conservatives don't plan on winning it back any time soon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So in much of Europe less than 50% of the network electrified is not uncommon - yes some countries such as Switzerland have a much higher proportion but equally the total Swiss network is just over 3000 miles which is roughly the same as the electrified network in the UK - and the UK has the same again and a bit more which isn't electrified.

Switzerland went straight from steam to electric, in any case, it missed out diesel.

 

[Reliablebeam]

I think you need to go away and do some research before posting incorrect assertions about the UK's railways in comparison to others:

The UK has about 40% of its network electrified
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_electrification_in_Great_Britain

India has about 45% of its network electrified
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Railways

France has about 50% of its network electrified.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_France

Germany has about 48% of its network electrified.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Germany

Japan's is much higher at 71% as is Korea at 69%

So in much of Europe less than 50% of the network electrified is not uncommon - yes some countries such as Switzerland have a much higher proportion but equally the total Swiss network is just over 3000 miles which is roughly the same as the electrified network in the UK - and the UK has the same again and a bit more which isn't electrified.

Thanks for some interesting figures but I stand by my assertion that the UK's electrification rate is too low. The fact that India has 5% more considering the state of some of their rural railways doesn't reflect well on the country about to engage in Brexit.

 

[PHILIPE]

I think that in view of the delay in electrification reaching Bristol and the Cardiff to Swansea patch abandoned, we should change to the title to non-progress,

 

[A0wen]

Switzerland went straight from steam to electric, in any case, it missed out diesel.

Driven in no small part by the fact they have a natural source of electricity - using hydro. Whereas getting oil / diesel into the country relied on it being imported from elsewhere.

 

[A0wen]

Thanks for some interesting figures but I stand by my assertion that the UK's electrification rate is too low. The fact that India has 5% more considering the state of some of their rural railways doesn't reflect well on the country about to engage in Brexit.

Using the condition of India's railways as your justification is misplaced.

What you actually need to look at is geography.

The UK HAS electrified the majority of its mainlines from London to its major cities.

Leaving London there are only 3 mainlines which are non-electrified for the majority of their length - the MML, the Chiltern line and the GWML, the third of which is being done to Cardiff and Bristol and therefore isn't in the numbers I showed.

Add in you have most of the key 'urban' networks in the major cities either electrified or in flight, so that the majority of local services in London, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow and the West Mids, are run using electrics.

The majority of the mileage which isn't wired is rural - look at the branch lines in Lincolnshire and East Anglia, the miles in the north of Scotland, arguably anything west of Exeter, certainly west of Plymouth, the Heart of Wales, the Cambrian to Pwllheli - it would never be viable to electrify those, yet in route miles they soon stack up.

60% of UK passenger journeys are made using electric trains.

 

[MatthewRead]

Switzerland went straight from steam to electric, in any case, it missed out diesel.

So did Poland.

 

[gallafent]

I think that in view of the delay in electrification reaching Bristol and the Cardiff to Swansea patch abandoned, we should change to the title to non-progress,

You got in just before me with that. Relatedly, the number of brazenly false statements made by Grayling, quoted in the WalesOnline article, is non-zero. It's standard operating procedure with this government and the railways though (witness the “ahead-of-schedule” arrival of electric trains at Maidenhead anounced by PMTM a little while back …)

 

[gallafent]

Interestingly, too, for those of us in Tenby he says "I'm asking... them to ensure services from Pembroke Dock to London via Carmarthen are on new, state of the art Intercity Express Trains."

Previously they were going to be withdrawn as the tunnel at Narberth is too small for the new trains. So what has changed? It's good news for Tenby, though...

That piqued my interest too (Manorbier from time to time, for me!). I wonder if anyone here with engineering knowledge about the Whitland-PD line might have any insight.

If they really can't be made to fit through Narberth (and Pembroke?) tunnel, as has been discussed elsewhere, someone will have to point out that he's promising the impossible. I imagine that job would fall to the civil servant or member of his staff that briefed him incorrectly in the first place ……… but yes, it would be nice if it turns out to be feasible after all!

Well then, otherwise, chilternised Mk3s hauled by 88s it is — works for me

 

[jimm]

Interestingly, too, for those of us in Tenby he says "I'm asking... them to ensure services from Pembroke Dock to London via Carmarthen are on new, state of the art Intercity Express Trains."

Previously they were going to be withdrawn as the tunnel at Narberth is too small for the new trains. So what has changed? It's good news for Tenby, though...

I wouldn't get too excited just yet.

He has probably had his ear bent by the local MP and as it's a Welsh audience, he wants to make it look like he is 'listening' - without actually bothering to find out that digging out/rebuilding a tunnel would be needed for a train of 26m coaches to get to Tenby for a few Saturdays each year - or maybe there really is a magic money tree out there...

Mr Grayling's 'article' - aka propaganda from a minion at the DfT, mostly 'announcing' lots of things people already know or frankly are the responsibility of the Welsh Government under devolved powers - can be found here:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/busine...rt-secretary-chris-grayling-explains-13356183

 

[Pacerpilot]

Mr Grayling committed to 40% more seats on rush-hour journeys between Swansea and Cardiff.
"The speed limit on the Swansea-Cardiff route is such that the new fleet of trains will be doing the route in exactly the same amount of time as they would be on a fully-electrified route," he told the newspaper.
"So it means the things people care about most (getting there on time and finding a seat) are delivered without the bother of what they care about least (how their trains are powered)."

I wonder if that quote will come back to haunt him given that two thirds of the trains actually have significantly less seats than those they are replacing.
And Im not buying the guff about them being run as 2x5 sets. It's only going to take a non-multi fault or a displaced set as you'll have 5 cars running in the peak out of Paddington.

 

[87015]

So did Poland.

Maybe for a lot of the mainlines as is generally the case for much of Europe, but PKP had many diesels - many, many hundreds of SM42s alone - of diesel locos built and even recently had a (small) new class developed for secondary IC workings.

 

[jimm]

I wonder if that quote will come back to haunt him given that two thirds of the trains actually have significantly less seats than those they are replacing.
And Im not buying the guff about them being run as 2x5 sets. It's only going to take a non-multi fault or a displaced set as you'll have 5 cars running in the peak out of Paddington.

Not this tired old line about trains breaking down all the time. Give it a rest. Hitachi's trains are just so unreliable, I mean just look at the Class 395s...

 

[Gareth Marston]

Using the condition of India's railways as your justification is misplaced.

What you actually need to look at is geography.

The UK HAS electrified the majority of its mainlines from London to its major cities.

Leaving London there are only 3 mainlines which are non-electrified for the majority of their length - the MML, the Chiltern line and the GWML, the third of which is being done to Cardiff and Bristol and therefore isn't in the numbers I showed.

Add in you have most of the key 'urban' networks in the major cities either electrified or in flight, so that the majority of local services in London, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow and the West Mids, are run using electrics.

The majority of the mileage which isn't wired is rural - look at the branch lines in Lincolnshire and East Anglia, the miles in the north of Scotland, arguably anything west of Exeter, certainly west of Plymouth, the Heart of Wales, the Cambrian to Pwllheli - it would never be viable to electrify those, yet in route miles they soon stack up.

60% of UK passenger journeys are made using electric trains.

But it should be much much higher its beyond belief that in 2017 all major trunk routes and commuter services around our Metropolitan areas are not electrified , this should have been done before the end of the last century.

Your right about the Cambrian etc however the situation on the mainlines and commuter belts is nowhere near as complete as you imply. If in doubt spend a day in Birmingham and count the diesels going in out of New St/Moor St/Snow Hill.

Theirs certainly an element of Daft wanting to be "proved right" in all this about its obsession with bi mode. "bi mode saves the day" is the railway that nobody wants except Daft and Hitachi who are the lucky beneficiaries of the over expensive contraptions.