Carlisle Security and Northern Rail: major concerns

[Mathew S]

Maybe someone should tip off Channel 4's Dispatches. As most journalists don't use Northern they don't get the same attention which GWR, Southern and Thameslink get.

Tongue in cheek though I'm sure your comment was, this journalist uses Northern all the time. I know many of my colleagues do as well.

Unfortunately (sort of) I've never experienced this myself, and don't know anyone who has, so I can't do anything with it. I hope someone finds a way of giving them a kick up the backside though, they need it.

 

[pemma]

Tongue in cheek though I'm sure your comment was, this journalist uses Northern all the time. I know many of my colleagues do as well.

When I said 'most journalists' I meant most journalists aren't based in the North of England and even some of the ones who are can't use Northern to get to work because they don't run trains (on the majority of their routes) at 3 or 4am. The likes of Louise Minchin, Dan Walker, Charlie Stayt, Sally Nugent, Naga Munchetty, Steph McGovern, Nicky Campbell and Rachel Burden can't use Northern to get to work.

 

[Mathew S]

When I said 'most journalists' I meant most journalists aren't based in the North of England and even some of the ones who are can't use Northern to get to work because they don't run trains (on the majority of their routes) at 3 or 4am. The likes of Louise Minchin, Dan Walker, Charlie Stayt, Sally Nugent, Naga Munchetty, Steph McGovern, Nicky Campbell and Rachel Burden can't use Northern to get to work.

I know
Many of those people work in Salford these days mind, so probably are subjected to the delights of Northern if they want to travel by train.

 

[pemma]

I know
Many of those people work in Salford these days mind, so probably are subjected to the delights of Northern if they want to travel by train.

They all work on weekday breakfast shows broadcast from MediaCity. However, if you're not using the train to get to work you're less likely to come across problems with trains then people who use the train every day. Former North West Tonight presenter Gordon Burns once did a moan about Metrolink on the show but he had only travelled on it due to not being able to get his car out one day due to heavy snow.

 

[shredder1]

My experience of Carlisle Security was to be stopped taking photographs at North station Birkenhead, they showed me no ID, but yet asked for mine, they were dressed in clothes from an army and navy type store which you could buy from any high street store, by chance I had photographed them walking towards me and sent the image through to the the rail regulator, who contacted Merseyrail and they in turn contacted the contractors Carlisle. Merseyrail apologied to me, but in their statement the Carlise security lied, and the idiots actually tripped themselves up, I`m amazed they are still going to be honest, hardly a professional company from my experience.

 

[pemma]

The other day I saw 3 of them, presumably on a break, having a food fight!

 

[185143]

My experience of Carlisle Security was to be stopped taking photographs at North station Birkenhead, they showed me no ID, but yet asked for mine, they were dressed in clothes from an army and navy type store which you could buy from any high street store, by chance I had photographed them walking towards me and sent the image through to the the rail regulator, who contacted Merseyrail and they in turn contacted the contractors Carlisle. Merseyrail apologied to me, but in their statement the Carlise security lied, and the idiots actually tripped themselves up, I`m amazed they are still going to be honest, hardly a professional company from my experience.

The Byelaw Enforcement officers are Carlisle Security aren't they? (I assume you were approached by the Customer Service lot rather than the Byelaw Enforcement though?) The Customer Service staff seem to be fairly good at spotting people looking confused and asking if they need assistance. I say that as I've been approached a few times-especially at Moorfields-when staring at the screen/network map trying to decide which train to board next! They always seem able to assist passengers which is surely all that should be required of them? Obviously, in your case-the situation is rather different and more a role of 'Customer Dis-Service'...

 

[scrapy]

Although they don't have a right to request ID do they?

..

When an authorised person has reason to believe breach of byelaw they can demand their name and address. They have every right to request ID. They may also ask for other information such as a date of birth. They are not however allowed to demand it. If a passenger chooses to give ID or further information they can record it. If a passenger refuses to give further information that is their choice as is their right to remain silent. Name and address doesn't have to be given verbally.

I do not believe they are required to tell a passenger that giving information other than name and address is not a legal requirement so can ask questions such as 'what is your date of birth' or 'can I see some ID?'. They are not however allowed to mislead a passenger by saying something like 'you are required by law to show some ID'.

 

[shredder1]

The Byelaw Enforcement officers are Carlisle Security aren't they? (I assume you were approached by the Customer Service lot rather than the Byelaw Enforcement though?) The Customer Service staff seem to be fairly good at spotting people looking confused and asking if they need assistance. I say that as I've been approached a few times-especially at Moorfields-when staring at the screen/network map trying to decide which train to board next! They always seem able to assist passengers which is surely all that should be required of them? Obviously, in your case-the situation is rather different and more a role of 'Customer Dis-Service'...

Security apparently mate and not very well trained ones either by all accounts, they can ask for ID but have to provide it themselves in the first instance, these people didnt until I took my press pass out and demanded that they provided me with ID.

 

[kevconnor]

When an authorised person has reason to believe breach of byelaw they can demand their name and address

They can but they should also say, in general terms, what the alleged breach of the byelaws is, I'd doubt that many of their employees would know specifically of the existence of specific Railway related byelaws.

I haven't run into this group of rent-a-thugs but have seen companies like them and my general disdain for them is normally based on the poor training provided by the company to their staff which results in a poor attitude deployed by a sizable number of their employees in circumstances which don't warrant it. If stopped I will generally be co-operative and amiable up to the point when they stop being so and I generally don't have a preponderance for breaking the law or ticketless travel but that doesn't stop some of them treating you like you broke into their house on Xmas day and urinated on their children.

 

[323235]

Northern have these people at my local station regularly - the guards do sometimes ask people if they need to buy a ticket after the train has stopped. We are also having ticket machines installed at the moment.

 

[BestWestern]

Regulation 23(1) does say this but it should be read in conjunction with regulation 23(2)



My interpretation of this is whilst they do not necessarily need to be able to say you have breached clause 18(1) regarding ticketless travel they should none the less be able to say travelling without a ticket without it falling into one of the subset exceptions.



I beg to disagree an 'authorised user' can include "an employee or agent of an Operator." They would come under the description of an agent of Northern.

Would a contract cleaner be an 'agent'? Or a TOC-employed cleaner? Curious as to what parameters if any apply here.

 

[yorkie]

If a cleaner issued an instruction to a passenger, quite possibly yes.

It would be up to the company to take up any concerns regarding incorrect information with its staff/contractors.

 

[traintimemf]

The inspectors do not allow people to leave without leaving their details.

That is indeed the case, yes.

surely they can't stop you? I wouldn't have thought they were allowed to physically stop you, this matter doesn't concern me in the slightest personally but reading this is making me imagine how I would react in such circumstances and I would not be playing their game

 

[MG11]

surely they can't stop you?

It is a criminal offence to fail to provide on request your name and address to an officer of the railway. Revenue Protection Officers can use reasonable force to detain persons.

 

[BestWestern]

It is a criminal offence to fail to provide on request your name and address to an officer of the railway. Revenue Protection Officers can use reasonable force to detain persons.

But this lot aren't Revenue Protection, presumably?

 

[traintimemf]

exactly - security contractors is a little vague, do they have the same rights? if so why can't they sell tickets? again I am only thinking in hypothetical terms, if I was in such a situation I would probably call and pay as I guess before reading this I would have no idea the phone number was a premium rate number

but if it was made known to me that I would have to pay above the standard fair - I doubt I would be compliant in whatever they were asking me to do

I guess I am thinking about this a little more as I usually travel intercity so buying a ticket is no problem but as I am currently travelling between Wakefield and Normanton regularly I can see how easily you can end up at your destination without a ticket and I would take great exception to be treated in such a way, if they decided they wanted to use 'reasonable force' I would be happy to wait for the police to turn up and speak to them about it rather than some heavy who is being employed to maximise revenue - not simply collecting revenue

 

[MG11]

According to Northern's Twitter page, they are Revenue Protection Officers, therefore, they will be trained in the Police And Criminal Evidence Act and the National Rail Conditions Of Carriage. The fact that they are contracted is irrelevant, Northern will have authorised them to represent their company - thus making them officers of the railway.

 

[BestWestern]

According to Northern's Twitter page, they are Revenue Protection Officers, therefore, they will be trained in the Police And Criminal Evidence Act and the National Rail Conditions Of Carriage. The fact that they are contracted is irrelevant, Northern will have authorised them to represent their company - thus making them officers of the railway.

But 'Officer of the railway' is very different to being a Revenue Protection Officer/Inspector, which brings with it a further set of specific, enhanced powers. Given Northern's track record of things like 'Penalty Fakes' and 'pretend' staff who work for various agency contractors, their definition of who/what these people are may or may not be the same as everyone else's!

 

[AlterEgo]

It is a criminal offence to fail to provide on request your name and address to an officer of the railway. Revenue Protection Officers can use reasonable force to detain persons.

This almost never happens.

 

[traintimemf]

According to Northern's Twitter page, they are Revenue Protection Officers, therefore, they will be trained in the Police And Criminal Evidence Act and the National Rail Conditions Of Carriage. The fact that they are contracted is irrelevant, Northern will have authorised them to represent their company - thus making them officers of the railway.

I agree, but I'm just a little unclear what they are actually contracted to do

can regular revenue protection officers sell tickets? or are they able to offer an opportunity to pay which does not penalise the passenger, financially or otherwise before taking action?

just seems more like a sting operation for people who haven't done anything wrong - I apologise if this has been answered as I haven't read the whole thread

 

[causton]

This almost never happens.

Most, if not all TOCs, have a no-contact policy. So I would agree, it would never happen and if a staff member did this they would probably not have the support of their company.

 

[londonbridge]

It is a criminal offence to fail to provide on request your name and address to an officer of the railway.

Firstly I would ask why they want my details. If the reply was "I believe you to be in breach of railway byelaws", as posted earlier I would ask them to specify exactly which byelaw or what the supposed breach was, and would them ask them what evidence they had to substantiate that belief. If they could not provide a satisfactory answer then I would argue that "Since you cannot provide evidence to back up your allegation you have no legal authority to demand my details/I am under no obligation to provide them, I am leaving".

 

[LOL The Irony]

I never knew that the BPN SS Stormtroopers made multiple clones of themselves for Northern... Although they are only doing their job.

 

[MG11]

Firstly I would ask why they want my details. If the reply was "I believe you to be in breach of railway byelaws", as posted earlier I would ask them to specify exactly which byelaw or what the supposed breach was, and would them ask them what evidence they had to substantiate that belief. If they could not provide a satisfactory answer then I would argue that "Since you cannot provide evidence to back up your allegation you have no legal authority to demand my details/I am under no obligation to provide them, I am leaving".

You'd still be committing an offence. If you wanted, you could give them your details and ask Northern why they wanted them after, and then Northern might decide to speak with the Officer who dealt with you, if they felt the Officer didn't have good reason to request your name and address. However, whether or not they can prove reasonable belief that you were breaching byelaws/RORA 1889, does not make you less accountable for failing to provide the Officer with the details they asked for.

 

[LOL The Irony]

If I came across one of them, I'd ask for their ID to be shown before I consider showing mine. I'd take a picture of their ID before telling them I don't have any ID (true fact. I don't have any form of offical ID) and then offer to show them my facebook account.

PS: The name Carlisle Sercurity sounds like a bunch of thugs who take over a small town and the residents contact the A Team for help.

 

[sheff1]

According to Northern's Twitter page, they are Revenue Protection Officers, therefore, they will be trained in ........ the National Rail Conditions Of Carriage.

The funniest thing I have read on here recently and that is not taking into account the fact that the NRCoC have been obsolete for over a year.

 

[pemma]

If I came across one of them, I'd ask for their ID to be shown before I consider showing mine. I'd take a picture of their ID before telling them I don't have any ID (true fact. I don't have any form of offical ID) and then offer to show them my facebook account.

PS: The name Carlisle Sercurity sounds like a bunch of thugs who take over a small town and the residents contact the A Team for help.

I think you're local to Knutsford. If you want to annoy them book any ticket online and select the TOD option, then turn up at the station 5-10 minutes before a Manchester bound train is expected in the morning/afternoon peak to collect it. Sometimes it doesn't have to 5-10 minutes before a departure - they are standing there stopping anyone going on to the platform without a ticket even if the next train is 40-50 minutes away!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you're local to Knutsford. If you want to annoy them book any ticket online and select the TOD option, then turn up at the station 5-10 minutes before a Manchester bound train is expected in the morning/afternoon peak to collect it. Sometimes it doesn't have to 5-10 minutes before a departure - they are standing there stopping anyone going on to the platform without a ticket even if the next train is 40-50 minutes away!

Northern management really are thick as the proverbial swine faeces, aren't they?

The sole TVMs[1] inside a barrier line (even a manned one).

Ticket offices inside a barrier line.

Is there any brain in there?

Why is it that it is only them that are so mind-blowingly stupid, and every other TOC manages to get things a lot closer to right? (I'm not saying perfect of course).

[1] Having a few inside at interchanges isn't a bad idea, for example Watford Junction has one inside for those arriving from St Albans, as often the guard doesn't have time to get round everyone. But not the only ones at that station.

 

[Starmill]

The sole TVMs[1] inside a barrier line (even a manned one).

This is also the situation at Wilmslow, Levenshulme and somewhere else that I just can't quite remember.

Having a few inside at interchanges isn't a bad idea, for example Watford Junction has one inside for those arriving from St Albans, as often the guard doesn't have time to get round everyone.

Arriving passengers can't use the ticket machines at Knutsford or Wilmslow, they don't sell tickets from another station.