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Carmel Coaches (Bristol / Devon)

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DaveHarries

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Evening all,

The Mid-Devon Gazette is reporting that operator Carmel Coaches, based near Okehampton, Devon - who took over Nailsea-based North Somerset Coaches not long ago - has been stripped of its O-Licence by the Western Traffic Commissioner wef 2359hrs, Thursday 31-Jul-2014. The firm was recently in the news following a coach crash near Looe, Cornwall.

The MDG's article goes into some detail and can be found at:

http://www.middevongazette.co.uk/Ca...ash-stripped/story-21208138-detail/story.html

The right of appeal does, of course, exist but in the meantime it is, of course, a time of much uncertainty for the Carmel drivers, including those who stayed on from NSC, and if the worst comes to the worst I wish the drivers success in finding new jobs. But lets see what happens with any appeal that may follow.

Dave
 
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They run the Route 88 in North Somerset between Portishead & Clevedon. I think it is a replacement for the old Bakers Dolphin 66 route.
 

richw

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The vehicle is the Looe accident is mentioned in the article as having a prohibition notice served in March relating to 2 seatbelts.

In such an occurrence where a licence is revoked is there anything stopping the directors that haven't been banned from holding such a licence from applying for a licence and to continue the operations? There are 2 directors not covered by the ban from holding an operators license so in theory could they apply for such a licence and take on the operator?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Nailsea based operation I have learnt is on a different O-Licence and seemingly not affected by these events.
Operator Licence PH1098535 is revoked from 23:59 hours on Thursday 31 July 2014
The Bristol based operation is a separate entity, Operator Licence number PH1127110 with Carolyn Alderton (Mr Hazell's daughter) as the O-licence holder
 
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fgwrich

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The Nailsea based operation I have learnt is on a different O-Licence and seemingly not affected by these events.
Operator Licence PH1098535 is revoked from 23:59 hours on Thursday 31 July 2014
The Bristol based operation is a separate entity, Operator Licence number PH1127110 with Carolyn Alderton (Mr Hazell's daughter) as the O-licence holder


Knowing the original owners of North Somerset Coaches and the amount of hard work and effort they put into the business, I'm pleased to hear that at least that part should survive! Although I don't think they'll want to be retaining the name Carmel in the business though.
 

CC 72100

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I'n surprised to here this about Carmel: when I have used them on rail replacement services and for random Exeter university runs I've found them very professional in their manner throughout.

Just goes to prove once more that how it looks on the shop floor can sometimes be different to what it's like behind the scenes...
 

richw

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Colly405

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The Nailsea based operation I have learnt is on a different O-Licence and seemingly not affected by these events.
Operator Licence PH1098535 is revoked from 23:59 hours on Thursday 31 July 2014
The Bristol based operation is a separate entity, Operator Licence number PH1127110 with Carolyn Alderton (Mr Hazell's daughter) as the O-licence holder
And VOSA changes posted on June 10th show the operator of the Clevedon local 88 changing from PH1098535 to PH1127110 WEF 2nd June (the date it started), and the X5 changing similarly on 30th June.
 

Titfield

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The vehicle is the Looe accident is mentioned in the article as having a prohibition notice served in March relating to 2 seatbelts.

In such an occurrence where a licence is revoked is there anything stopping the directors that haven't been banned from holding such a licence from applying for a licence and to continue the operations? There are 2 directors not covered by the ban from holding an operators license so in theory could they apply for such a licence and take on the operator?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Nailsea based operation I have learnt is on a different O-Licence and seemingly not affected by these events.
Operator Licence PH1098535 is revoked from 23:59 hours on Thursday 31 July 2014
The Bristol based operation is a separate entity, Operator Licence number PH1127110 with Carolyn Alderton (Mr Hazell's daughter) as the O-licence holder

There are a number of actions that Carmel Coaches could take:

1) Appeal against all the decisions of the Traffic Commissioner
2) Appeal against some of the decisions of the Traffic Commissioner (e.g. the disqualification orders)

In the time before the appeal is heard they could apply for a stay which would enable them to continue to operate until the outcome of the appeal is issued.

An application for a new licence could be made though any links between the owners directors and transport manager of the original business would have to be disclosed. This would probably mean that the application would be called in to a public inquiry so that any issues relating to fronting or a phoenix operation could be explored.

Unlike road haulage, there is no "interim" licence available to new applicants to enable them to operate whilst an application for a new licence is made.

The length of time between the decision being made and the date of revocation suggests to me that the TC has given Carmel Coaches a considerable amount of time to effect either an orderly wind down of the business or for a means to be found to enable the business to continue. If Carmel Coaches operate school contracts this may be a further reason why the revocation does not take place until after the end of the school term (to prevent disruption and enable the local authority to make arrangements for the new term to start in September)
 

Rapidash

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Well, this will be a bit of a ballache for the language schools in Torbay, as its about time for the Vast Swarm to descend upon us. Carmel have been the provider of choice for the last few years. Wonder if Western Greyhound are up for a detour from Exeter ;)
 

quarella

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I don't know the finer details of operator licensng but the firm operating out of two locations I drove for some years ago to the public, and to the employees was Joe Bloggs Coaches. However the 'O' licences were for three different companies. Jo Bloggs Coaches, JB Enterprise Ltd, and Bloggs Travel (Trumpton) Ltd*. As has already been pointed out Nailsea is under a different O licence but is the Devon part of Carmel coaches split even if they have to find people of good repute to replace those no longer deemed suitable.

The times I have used them as a passenger on a shuttle bus at an event a few years ago and rail replacement earlier this year I was impressed with how smartly turned out their vehicles appeared and the drivers I travelled with were of a very standard both in customer care skills and driving.
 

richw

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The times I have used them as a passenger on a shuttle bus at an event a few years ago and rail replacement earlier this year I was impressed with how smartly turned out their vehicles appeared and the drivers I travelled with were of a very standard both in customer care skills and driving.

This seems to be the general consensus of many peoples reviews, and every bus I've seen has been smartly turned out, even their spare vehicle they loaned to Western Greyhound looked smart, but I never saw Western Greyhound operating it after their fire despite it being on loan.
The investigation apparently stemmed from whistle blowing by drivers.
 

plymothian

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There is no point Carmel trying to carry on through, they're being dropped like hot stones by their contract providers, and the schools/parents want them as far from their children as possible.
 

SWTH

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This seems to be the general consensus of many peoples reviews, and every bus I've seen has been smartly turned out, even their spare vehicle they loaned to Western Greyhound looked smart, but I never saw Western Greyhound operating it after their fire despite it being on loan.
The investigation apparently stemmed from whistle blowing by drivers.

Both Varios that were on loan were in daily use for the duration of their stay at WGL.
 

Goldfish62

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I'n surprised to here this about Carmel: when I have used them on rail replacement services and for random Exeter university runs I've found them very professional in their manner throughout.

Just goes to prove once more that how it looks on the shop floor can sometimes be different to what it's like behind the scenes...

Yes - totally. Preventative maintenance and safety requirements are, rightly, very strict in the industry. Just because a bus and its driver look smart that is no indication that the proper systems are in place to ensure that all reasonable steps to ensure safety are being taken.

Where operators are found lacking VOSA (now DVSA) work with them to give guidance on how to improve. If they take inadequate steps they are called to a public inquiry. I have been to a number of public inquiries, both as an observer and a witness, and I can tell you that the case has to be serious in the extreme for the TC to revoke a licence.
 

richw

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Is it likely to be released details of the maintenance issues that have got them to this stage?
 

Goldfish62

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Is it likely to be released details of the maintenance issues that have got them to this stage?

Yes, it's in the public domain. Such matters are often reported in the trade press and there's nothing stopping you asking for a copy of the TC's report.
 

richw

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Today was the final day prior to the revocation.

Does anybody know if any appeals or change of management had happened to save the company?
 

swifty

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They will still be trading for the foreseeable future, most of the vehicles seem to now be overall white with no fleet names though.

A coach firm that had its licence stripped due a series of “woeful” safety failures has been granted a stay of execution.

Tony Hazell, director and founder of Marsh Barton-based Carmel Coaches, said he had been granted an appeal that will be heard by the Upper Tribunal at a date yet to be set.

Following the publication of a damning report into the safety of its vehicles the Traffic Commissioner had stripped the licence with effect from July 31.

The traffic commissioner outlined defects involving brakes, seatbelts, tyres and emergency exits relating to Carmel Coaches’ vehicles and described the faults as “serious and long-standing”.

If it does have to close 50 local jobs would be at risk.

The firm has several contracts for school runs across Devon.

Steps have now been taken to tighten school bus contracts in Devon in light of the issues surrounding Carmel Coaches.

But Mr Hazell, who had described the decision as “harsh” said the company is now able to continue operating beyond July 31, pending the outcome of the appeal.

He said: “We have lodged an appeal and that has been granted but we have not been given a date and are waiting to hear when it will take place.

“We are able to carry on trading while we wait for the appeal. The July 31 date has been revoked and we have been granted a stay of execution to carry on until the appeal. We have no idea how long that will take as we have never been through this before.

“Until the appeal it is business as usual. The county council has carried out nearly 60 spot checks on our vehicles in the last three weeks and not a single one has been taken off the road.”

Meanwhile, Devon County Council said it is taking action to ensure operators who are contracted to take children to schools are obliged to inform it of critical reports or warnings they have received.

Investigations relating to Carmel Coaches, spanned more than three years but the council only became aware of them pending the publication of the Traffic Commissioners report last month.

Concerns have raised by parents and Exeter MP Ben Bradshaw over why the company was allowed to continue taking children to school despite the long-standing concerns.

Issues were registered as far back as May 2011 while DVSA investigations in 2012 and 2013 found the company to be ‘unsatisfactory’ and resulted in the issuing of warning letters.

Replying to a letter from Mr Bradshaw, John Smith, the head of services for communities at the county council, wrote: “Under the council’s general contract conditions for passenger transport contracts there is a requirement that ‘the operator will inform the council immediately of any conditions imposed by the traffic commissioner.’

“We are now taking legal advice regarding whether in future this condition can further be strengthened, in light of this case.”

Mr Bradshaw said he welcomed steps to tighten up future contracts.

He said: “I’m pleased that the county council is looking to tighten such contracts in future to ensure any operator is obliged to inform them of any critical reports or warnings they’ve received.

“It would also make sense for Devon to have proper protocols in place with the Driver and Vehicle Safety Agency including information sharing and regular meetings so that concerns can be identified at an earlier stage.”

The firm was involved in the fatal accident in May in which two women died, and several more were seriously injured, during an Exmouth Age Concern day trip to Cornwall. The company has stressed that the vehicle involved in that incident did not have any defects.

Read more at http://www.northdevonjournal.co.uk/...1451380-detail/story.html#oD33BWRzmluZw5jk.99
 

richw

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They will still be trading for the foreseeable future, most of the vehicles seem to now be overall white with no fleet names though.

I imagine regardless of appeal result, the damage has already been done to the company and reputation.
If a successful appeal I can only a imagine a change in trading name the only chance to recover reputation.
 

Goldfish62

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I imagine regardless of appeal result, the damage has already been done to the company and reputation.
If a successful appeal I can only a imagine a change in trading name the only chance to recover reputation.

Quite right too that the company's reputation has been damaged. The appeal is about the severity of the punishment, not whether the appalling catalogue of neglect took place.
 
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Titfield

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The Traffic Commissioner has a range of sanctions they can apply against the O licence.

a) take no action
b) issue a written warning
c) revoke the licence
d) curtail the licence (i.e. reduce the number of vehicles that can be operated under the licence)
e) suspend the licence for a period of time (to allow actions can be taken for example retest all vehicles).

The decision reached by the TC will have taken into account the evidence and a balancing exercise will have taken place. (Where the TC balances the positive aspects against the negative aspects).
 

47245

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Quote: A Devon coach firm which was stripped of its operating licence is to cease trading, managers say.

Carmel Coaches said the decision to stop trading on 14 November had been made after losing an appeal aimed at keeping its licence.

The company appealed to the Transport Tribunal after it was stripped of its licence in June because of safety failures and poor record keeping.

The firm said it would to ensure job losses were kept to a minimum.

Carmel Coaches ran bus routes for schools services and private hire from depots in Northlew and Exeter.

Sarah Bell, traffic commissioner for the West of England, revoked its licence and those of two of its directors over "woeful failures" and safety concerns.

Issues included serious defects not being fixed and poor record keeping of safety issues over a number of years, she said.

The appeal heard the firm's MoT failure rate was double the 18% national average and one brake defect was reported eight times before something was done.

At that hearing, company director Tony Hazell admitted the firm had expanded too fast but said maintenance had improved.

Speaking of the company closing, Mr Hazell said arrangements "are being made for all future contracts and bookings to be honoured".

He added: "We are working hard to ensure staff find continued employment and job losses will be kept to a minimum."

One of the firm's vehicles was involved in a coach crash at Looe in Cornwall in May where two people died although no defects were found.

The traffic commissioner said she gathered her evidence before the crash and her decision did not reflect the incident.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-29728748

I haven't quoted this right but it's all off the BBC News website.
 
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