Carriages: Compartment, Corridor, Open

[PG]

Yes I remember the privacy of a Mk 1 compartment and the more interesting uses to which it could be put by male and female travelling companions very well. Happy days of a long departed youth!

I guess that's why BR fitted them with blinds on the corridor side

 

[AlbertBeale]

I guess that's why BR fitted them with blinds on the corridor side

Why the ageist references to private compartments being "useful" for youthful people only?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

On non-corridor stock there used to be compartments labelled 'Ladies Only'. Given there was by definition no corridor that might have been difficult to enforce.

 

[Lucan]

Why the ageist references to private compartments being "useful" for youthful people only?

I do believe you are actually being serious.

On non-corridor stock there used to be compartments labelled 'Ladies Only'. Given there was by definition no corridor that might have been difficult to enforce.

I think that if a man got in, there would be a conspicuous exit by any pre-occupying ladies onto the platform and a general involvement of platform staff and guard. Also in those days the culprit might well have ended up with a black eye from male bystanders. It was a different world.

 

[30907]

Cheers, so I did get one of the current classes but not a subclass used to Lymington. I am slightly surprised they kept a compartmented rather than open seating unit for the branch.

A 3-CIG only had 8 pairs of doors to fit with CDL, so obviously cheaper than a VEP, and I don't think the SW had the 3-COP variety.

 

[Gloster]

I think that if a man got in, there would be a conspicuous exit by any pre-occupying ladies onto the platform and a general involvement of platform staff and guard. Also in those days the culprit might well have ended up with a black eye from male bystanders. It was a different world.

I can remember when 4-EPB (or possibly even 4-SUB) EMUs had Ladies compartments. If a gentleman should inadvertently jump into one just as the train was starting, he would be expected to keep well to himself and depart apologetically at the next stop. If he didn’t, then he was no gentleman. I am not sure if the rule was, officially or unofficially, relaxed in the rush-hours.

 

[30907]

I can remember when 4-EPB (or possibly even 4-SUB) EMUs had Ladies compartments. If a gentleman should inadvertently jump into one just as the train was starting, he would be expected to keep well to himself and depart apologetically at the next stop. If he didn’t, then he was no gentleman. I am not sure if the rule was, officially or unofficially, relaxed in the rush-hours.

It was only the SUBs (specifically the all-compartment ones), not the EPBs which always had plenty of open saloons.

 

[Journeyman]

It was only the SUBs (specifically the all-compartment ones), not the EPBs which always had plenty of open saloons.

Yes. On SUBs with compartment motor coaches, they were adjacent to the guards vans.

I think the very last Ladies Only compartments were on the loco-hauled suburban Mark 1s that operated on the GN lines.

 

[Gloster]

Yes. On SUBs with compartment motor coaches, they were adjacent to the guards vans.

That would tally, as I can remember seeing one on an evening Down at Effingham Junction with the Ladies compartment near the stairs. I think that the trains via Bookham continued to be 4-SUB, while the New Line via Cobham was 4-EPB.

 

[Journeyman]

That would tally, as I can remember seeing one on an evening Down at Effingham Junction with the Ladies compartment near the stairs. I think that the trains via Bookham continued to be 4-SUB, while the New Line via Cobham was 4-EPB.

The New Line was actually the very first to get EPBs, although SUBs made a comeback later.

 

[hexagon789]

A 3-CIG only had 8 pairs of doors to fit with CDL, so obviously cheaper than a VEP, and I don't think the SW had the 3-COP variety.

Fair enough, just thinking about the rarity of compartments by that point that they should still be found on a mainline train in 2010

 

[Lucan]

I can remember when 4-EPB (or possibly even 4-SUB) EMUs had Ladies compartments. If a gentleman should inadvertently jump into one just as the train was starting, he would be expected to keep well to himself and depart apologetically at the next stop

There seemed to be two sorts of 4-SUB, older ones with a brow and domed roof at the cab ends, and newer ones with rather flat (and uglier IMHO) ends. I'm sure only the older type had ladies compartments, let alone EPBs. I might be wrong, but recall that the "Ladies Only" sign was etched into the window glass.

As a schoolboy of about eleven, I once found I had jumped into a ladies compartment as the train was leaving. There was a lady in it and I was horrified. She realised my dilemma said it was OK, obviously deciding I did not look like a maniac. I hastily changed compartments at the next stop, hoping no-one would even see me emerging. The interior looked the same as any other, it wasn't pink or anything like that.

 

[Journeyman]

There seemed to be two sorts of 4-SUB, older ones with a brow and domed roof at the cab ends, and newer ones with rather flat (and uglier IMHO) ends. I'm sure only the older type had ladies compartments, let alone EPBs. I might be wrong, but recall that the "Ladies Only" sign was etched into the window glass.

The earlier 4-SUBs you mention were 4101 to 4110, which had front ends like 2-HALs. They were 100% compartment and indeed had ladies only compartments. A number of the flat-fronted SUBs were all-compartment too. Only the later ones had the same mix of accommodation as the EPBs (2 open driving vehicles, one open and one compartment trailer).

All SUBs with compartment motor coaches had ladies only compartments.

 

[Inversnecky]

The interior looked the same as any other, it wasn't pink or anything like that.

I think the 'pink it and shrink it' craze is more of a recent thing

 

[Gloster]

Recollection is that the ‘Ladies Only’ compartments were exactly the same as the other compartments except for the small notice on the window beside the door. I hasten to add that I only travelled in them when an accompanied child, which was permitted.

 

[Beebman]

I've just come across a photo on Flickr of an exterior view of a Ladies Only compartment on one of the 4DD double deck units:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/34241281622/

 

[Taunton]

I hasten to add that I only travelled in them when an accompanied child, which was permitted.

I spoke with female colleagues in our Dubai office about the high-tech Metro there, which has one end car dedicated to "Ladies only". They said they deliberately never travelled in it - the noise from the small children made it a far less pleasant ambience!

 

[Royston Vasey]

I was surprised when last in Tokyo to find myself in a Women Only car, but the segregation was limited to the morning peak. Pink vinyl liberally applied inside and out!

 

[Beebman]

I was surprised when last in Tokyo to find myself in a Women Only car, but the segregation was limited to the morning peak. Pink vinyl liberally applied inside and out!

I saw something similar in Osaka when I visited in 2017:

 

[AY1975]

Yes. Gone in 1971, slightly outlasted by all-compartment SUBs, which lasted up to about 1973/4.

I believe that the all-compartment SUBs were nicknamed "knee-knocks" because of the very narrow (or non-existent!) space between the knees of two facing passengers. I also seem to recall that the all-compartment SUBs (and some of the later SUBs) had one trailer that was originally planned to be a Composite and therefore had only nine compartments instead of ten (with the middle three compartments that were intended to be 1st class being wider than the others) but in the event 1st class was abolished on all Southern Region suburban services before they entered service.

Do you know whether the last all-compartment SUBs latterly ran on the South Western, Central or South Eastern Division? Did any of them make it into BR blue livery?

 

[Journeyman]

I believe that the all-compartment SUBs were nicknamed "knee-knocks" because of the very narrow (or non-existent!) space between the knees of two facing passengers. I also seem to recall that the all-compartment SUBs (and some of the later SUBs) had one trailer that was originally planned to be a Composite and therefore had only nine compartments instead of ten (with the middle three compartments that were intended to be 1st class being wider than the others) but in the event 1st class was abolished on all Southern Region suburban services before they entered service.

Do you know whether the last all-compartment SUBs latterly ran on the South Western, Central or South Eastern Division? Did any of them make it into BR blue livery?

The SUBs disappeared from the Eastern Section quite early, and had gone by the late fifties. This was largely down to the failure of the 4-DD units to effectively deal with overcrowding, and the decision being made to extend suburban services to ten cars. It needed a large new batch of 2-EPBs, and so the Eastern Section became all-EPB early on. The Kent Coast electrification also resulted in an influx of new 2-HAPs for outer suburban services, so that allowed the 2-HALs to go to the Central and Western sections, replacing 2-NOLs. Initially, before there were enough EPBs, some 10-car trains on the Eastern section were formed of a pair of SUBs and a HAL.

As for the rest, I'm just consulting Southern Electric: A New History by David Brown...

• Units 4101 to 4110 were the original all-compartment SUBs, with cabs similar to 2-HALs. These had 9-compartment motor coaches, one eleven-compartment trailer third, and a ten-compartment trailer composite, although only the first one ever had first class seating in it. These were the ones with extremely narrow compartments. These were all withdrawn during 1972. They operated on all three divisions.
• Units 4111 to 4120 were again all-compartment, but with one less compartment per vehicle than the ones above. These were the first "all-steel" units with upright cabs. These mostly went by 1973 - according to my 1974 Ian Allan ABC, 4112 was still in traffic.
• Units 4121 to 4130 had the nine-compartment trailer, but all other vehicles were "semi-saloon" - the motors had two four-bay saloons with a partition between them, and the other trailer had saloons of three/four/three bays. These were an experiment to determine whether saloons were better for handling crowds, and/or more popular with the public. The last five of these went in 1976, with a couple of them running as all-saloon for their last year.
• The nine-compartment "pseudo-composites" actually had six wider compartments, not three. A number of these eventually found their way into EPB units, including unit 5115. This particular vehicle was the one in which Deborah Linsley was murdered in 1988, leading Network SouthEast to concentrate all compartment vehicles in 55xx units which were then used in peak hours only.
• A number of further all-compartment units were built, including 4355-4376, with 4377 having one open trailer, and three compartment vehicles.
• Units 4601 to 4607 were formed of new saloon motor coaches and older compartment trailers previously used to augment pre-war units. They were gradually reformed over the years, some gaining standard formation, others all-saloon.
• After that, all 4-SUBs had two open motors, an open 10-bay trailer and a 10-compartment trailer. Withdrawals of earlier units in the 1970s as already mentioned resulted in many compartment trailers being withdrawn. By the end of SUB operation in 1983, only celebrity unit 4732 retained a compartment trailer, due to an administrative oversight!
• 2 new all-compartment units were formed in 1969, 4131 and 4132 - they had HAL motor coaches and SUB trailers, three of which had wooden roofs. They lasted until October 1971. Photo of one of them in the book on a Victoria to Epsom Downs service.
• Yes, many all-compartment SUBs made it into blue livery.

Hope that's useful.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

yes, or just nick them and throw them out the window....

My first memory of train travel involved a Saturday trip on the non-corridor EMUs on the MSJ&A route into Manchester.
The train arrived at Oxford Road minus all its light bulbs, which had been ejected (with some force) in the Old Trafford tunnel.
Such was the esteem people had for BR and public property in those days.

While regions other than WR and SR had 3-a-side seating on long-distance trains, all the local trains were 6-a-side in compartments.
Compartments were also marked Smoking, Non-Smoking and Ladies, to further restrict usage.
I think we are well rid of them.
It took longer to rid the network of trains with multiple slam doors to a carriage, with the arrival of power doors and the "PEP" design.
I think the 310/312 design was the last of that type.

Some DB ICEs have a few "compartments" within the open plan with half-height glass surrounds which can be booked, eg for families or business meetings.
And sometimes with great views out front over the driver's shoulder...
TGVs have some special areas too.

 

[WesternLancer]

My first memory of train travel involved a Saturday trip on the non-corridor EMUs on the MSJ&A route into Manchester.
The train arrived at Oxford Road minus all its light bulbs, which had been ejected (with some force) in the Old Trafford tunnel.
Such was the esteem people had for BR and public property in those days.

While regions other than WR and SR had 3-a-side seating on long-distance trains, all the local trains were 6-a-side in compartments.
Compartments were also marked Smoking, Non-Smoking and Ladies, to further restrict usage.
I think we are well rid of them.
It took longer to rid the network of trains with multiple slam doors to a carriage, with the arrival of power doors and the "PEP" design.
I think the 310/312 design was the last of that type.

Some DB ICEs have a few "compartments" within the open plan with half-height glass surrounds which can be booked, eg for families or business meetings.
And sometimes with great views out front over the driver's shoulder...
TGVs have some special areas too.

I was on an ICE in a trad 6 person (I think - I can only recall 4 people being in it however) 1st class compartment in oct 2019. Very nice

 

[43096]

I was on an ICE in a trad 6 person (I think - I can only recall 4 people being in it however) 1st class compartment in oct 2019. Very nice

The first generation of ICE sets have compartments in both first and second class - the vehicles are part open and part compartment, with 3 compartments. A very nice way of travelling if you can get a compartment for your group.

 

[Gloster]

I was on an ICE in a trad 6 person (I think - I can only recall 4 people being in it however) 1st class compartment in oct 2019. Very nice

My recollection is that a lot of German compartments are 5 person ones. However, they often have one by the window that doubles up: with the top down they are a small table, but hinge the top back and you have a seat for a child. The seat is carefully placed so that the child’s swinging legs are at a convenient height to do plenty of damage.

 

[30907]

My recollection is that a lot of German compartments are 5 person ones. However, they often have one by the window that doubles up: with the top down they are a small table, but hinge the top back and you have a seat for a child. The seat is carefully placed so that the child’s swinging legs are at a convenient height to do plenty of damage.

Those are the ex InterRegio semi-compartment coaches which IIRC were converted from DR (East German) stock and are now pretty much confined to relief sets.

 

[Helvellyn]

If NSE had been able to build the Class 471 Networkers for the Kent Coast in the early 1990s to replace the 4-CEPs, 4-VEPs and 4-CIGs on those routes it was planned they would have have had four six-seater First Class compartments per unit, with standard a mix of 2+2 and 3+2 seating.

One coach I think has been missed is 99520, the BREL International Train BFK built in 1986 that included a double compartment that could be used by groups as well as more normal six-seater compartments.

http://www.traintesting.com/images/International%20inside%20corridor.jpg

http://www.traintesting.com/images/International%20inside%20saloon.jpg

 

[StephenHunter]

What was the purpose of the 'International Train'?

 

[Wolfie]

The last 100% compartment stock is long gone - the Southern had all-compartment SUBs up to the early 70s, along with units like the BILs and HALs. The MSJA 1500v EMUs were all-compartment too.

Were no EPBs all compartment? Certainly in the mid 80s l remember on several occasions trying several carriages and finding them all to be compartments...

 

[Gloster]

What was the purpose of the 'International Train'?

I think it was intended to act as a demonstrator/shop window to obtain orders for BREL from abroad.