Cascade of DMUs to CURRENT TPE franchise

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by aformeruser, 15 Aug 2015.

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  1. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    With all the talk about the next franchise I think most people have forgotten the sublease of the 4 remaining 170/3s from Chiltern to TPE ends next February. The TPE ITT mentions as well as the 185s and 350s transferring to the next franchise (in April 2015) bidders can expect that 4 DMUs with 'similar characteristics' to the 170s to also transfer.

    Do we have any idea where these DMUs will come from?

    Could we see another loco-hauled set or two appearing somewhere to free up some DMUs?
     
    Last edited: 16 Aug 2015
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  3. fgwrich

    fgwrich Established Member

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    Are ScotRail likely to free up any 170s by then with the EGIP scheme?
     
  4. 47802

    47802 On Moderation

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    Do we need a separate thread for this? why not use one of the existing TPX discussions.

    I think you mean April 2016 by the way, are we sure that the 170's will transfer to Chiltern in April or will they be retained until the next stages of North West electrification release additional Rolling stock, that would seem more likely to me.
     
  5. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    No.

    So a lease of 4 x 2 car DMUs from February 2016 to December 2017 or if you prefer the period between when the TPE Direct Award was originally expected to end and the date the Bolton line is expected to be electrified. Obviously if they aren't 170s TPE crews will have to be trained on them before February 2016.
     
  6. 47802

    47802 On Moderation

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    Probably more 156's from Northern then, 319's to Preston should free up some additional rolling stock, obviously a 156 isn't equiv speed wise but I don't see where else they would come from.

    In reality it probably means more current 185 services which work to Blackpool/Barrow etc will have to be temp worked by 156's which will of course be transferred to Northern by then anyway.
     
    Last edited: 15 Aug 2015
  7. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    I can't see that working for 2 reasons:
    1. Northern getting 20 x 319s instead of 14 x 319s and switching Liverpool-Preston to electric was to allow Northern to free up DMUs for strengthening their own services, which was postponed as a result of the loan of 6 x 156s to TPE.
    2. While the remaining Blackpool diagram could be switched to 2 x 156s to free up a 185 for South TPE, I can't see where TPE could use a further 2 x (75mph) 156s. Also as the TPE ITT refers to the on loan 156s not transferring to the next TPE franchise (as a result of Blackpool-Airport services transferring to Northern) but refers to TPE taking on 4 x 170 'equivalents' I don't think DfT were working on the basis of more 156s on TPE North West services.

    Some possibilities I've thought of (which may or may not work):
    * SWT introduce loco-hauled working(s) and release 4 x 158s to TPE.
    * XC/Anglia introduce loco-hauled working(s) and release 4 x 2 car 170s to TPE.
    * Dare I suggest the introduction of D-Trains releasing some 150/3s to Northern, who in turn release some 158s to TPE.
    * Some 170/1s loaned from Southern (With securing the Eversholt 170s I think they got more carriages than they originally envisaged getting as well as getting them sooner.)

    (Loco-hauled formations could include loco-hauled 442s.)
     
    Last edited: 15 Aug 2015
  8. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    how bad for timings would it be to use loco+coaches on Cambridge-Norwich, Cambridge-Ipswich or Ipswich-Peterborough?
     
  9. FordFocus

    FordFocus Member

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    What's in it for these franchises to release stock that they lease to help TPE?
     
  10. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    Unlikely as Anglia don't have enough units now looking at short forms that appear on their website. Even if they did I could only see them operating between Norwich and Lowestoft / Great Yarmouth as the Hauled sets would lose time elsewhere.

    Will any IEP sets (either Electric or Bi Mode) be available to run in service on the East Coast franchise, releasing HSTs to XC thus releasing Voyagers to TPE?
     
  11. Robbies

    Robbies Established Member

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    I cannot see XC releasing voyagers for HST's, if anything I would say that the HST's that XC have may go to TPE if they are provided trains in replacement for the HST's.

    The only way I can see change happening with electrification to be done on the Midland Mainline and on the route from Crew to Holyhead via Chester.

    Other than that it would be either more Pendolino's or Hitachi AT300's to VWC to replace the Voyagers working trains under the wires and for those Voyagers to then go to XC to replace the HST's.
     
  12. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    With 175s already passed to Blackpool and Barrow, perhaps ATW could loan a few to TPE (probably on a similar arrangement to the current 156 loan: i.e. not specific units) if they receive some stock to compensate (another loco-hauled set or two, or some D-trains to prompt an internal cascade). No doubt there's issues with driver and guard training but I can't think of any solution that would avoid this.
     
  13. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    Depends if XC had any choice in the matter. Remember the XC franchise is up for renewal soon. The owners of the stock may happy to get a long lease from TPE compared to an uncertain lease from XC.
     
  14. Emblematic

    Emblematic Member

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    However the franchise is anticipated to be extended to 2019 under direct award, with franchise renewal delayed until then. That would mean the current franchisee doing the required upgrades or stock changes for PRM-TSI, as there would be insufficient time for the new franchise to make substantial changes.
     
  15. 47802

    47802 On Moderation

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    1. Perhaps that might get postponed again

    2. TPX don't need any 156's if the appropriate number of 185 are released from transferred services, yes from that wording it would suggest the DFT are not working on that basis but I suspect it may well be subject to change

    Who's to say that the DFT wont come to some agreement with Chiltern to extend beyond Feb 2016, do Chiltern really need them by that date?

    Maybe an additional Northern Loco Hauled diagram will be introduced to ease the situation, but I certainly don't see SWT loco hauled for sure.

    OK in the last fudge Northern were promised not to loose any Rolling stock, but with the new franchise I suspect all bets are off.
     
    Last edited: 15 Aug 2015
  16. Robbies

    Robbies Established Member

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    The only loco hauled coaches that would be available are the class 442's which are on the possibility list of going to TPE.

    I cannot see SWT taking the class 442's back to be loco hauled on the services to Salisbury/Exeter to replace either class 158's or class 159's.

    The only way that the class 442's would appear back in the South Western Division is when or if the franchise gets run by someone other than Stagecoach.
     
  17. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Evidence? Why wouldn't every other possible franchisee consider them suitable for the scrap yard, like Southern do?

    BTW, should this thread be about a Cascade OF DMUs?
     
    Last edited: 15 Aug 2015
  18. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    Anticipated yes but all accounts not guaranteed yet, look what happened to SWT as wel. In any event didn't TPE lose the 170s as they only had a short extension and the ROSCO liked what Southern had ahead of it in the way of a much longer time to use these units.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I would consider it more likely that Chiltern would be subsidised to take on another Mark III rake using either another Class 68 or Class 67 loco?
     
  19. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    Most franchises will be discussing terms of Direct Awards with DfT now or soon. It might be a choice of no extra capacity or extra capacity if they release existing units.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    The SWT franchise will end soon with no Direct Award. Stagecoach reportedly weren`t happy with the revised terms DfT wanted.
     
  20. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    DRS could perhaps rustle up another Mk2 rake if needed in the short-to-medium term.
     
  21. Robbies

    Robbies Established Member

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    Yes, I know that why I stated the only way that any class 442 would go back to the South West Division is if stagecoach was not running.

    It is about the cascade of DMU's, but if you look further back in this thread it was stated about the class 442's going to SWT to then allow class 158 or I presume class 159's to go to TPE or another TOC, which as I stated in my previous post I do not see happening.

    Now I believe Department for Transport has included the Class 442 as an option for the TransPennine Express franchise? If this is without any modifications, then they obviously will pass the disability regulations in 2020, so on that basis are still a usable train to be used either under their or be loco hauled. What other stock is Mk3 that will pass the disability regulations in 2020 without having to have modifications and will be going spare within the next 12 months other than the HST coaches that will need to be modified?

    There are no spare class 158/159, no spare class 165/166 as they are moving on to the services in the far South West to replace class 158 trains, which will replace the class 150/1's that FGW have currently. I am presuming that the class 150/1 will either be scrapped or go on to replace any class 142/143/144 trains running somewhere in the country?

    But if the above happens, that is not freeing up any DMU trains to be available for TPE. So the only options is loco hailed 442's or new build trains as Mk2's would be costly as they too like the Mk3's would need to be modified to have electric doors.

    The way I see it is, that any new TOC franchise for TPE has to go for new stock to run the Manchester - Scotland services using 5 or 7 car Pendolino or Hitachi AT300 bi - mode train. This releases the class 350/4's to go on to electric commuter routes with TPE or another operator and releases any class 185's also being used on this route which should I believe free up the class 156's to go back to Northern.
     
    Last edited: 15 Aug 2015
  22. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    We already know the likely destinations of released DMUs as discussed in previous threads:
    • FGW 15xs and Scotrail 15xs and 17xs to Northern
    • 1 Northern 153 to EMT
    • Northern 142s and 144s and FGW 143s to be 'disposed of.'

    Perhaps still a question mark over the LO 172s which will be released later.

    The question is where are 4 x 2 car DMUs similar to the 170s for TPE going to come from?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Could SWT make use of extra carriages?

    Would they really want to reject the option of having 2 sets of 10 car loco-hauled formations in exchange for releasing 2 x 2 car 158s?

    442s and loco-hauled are options the next TPE franchise can consider. They have to ensure by December 2020 all trains are fully accessible, don't dump toilet waste on to the tracks etc. DfT saying 442s are an option doesn't mean that don't need any post-2020 modifications or mean that bidders won't see them as a short term option until new stock can be procured, making post-2020 modifications irrelevant.

    However, the question is what will the current TPE franchise get in the next few months? DfT have promised 4 x 2 car DMUs similar in characteristics to the 170s.

    Most likely the released Sprinters from FGW and Scotrail will go to Northern, otherwise the minimum 120 new build vehicles will have to be a much larger order.
     
  23. Qwerty133

    Qwerty133 Established Member

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    Some 150s from somewhere could go to LM to release 170s, i could see LM accepting this if for example, it allows them to gain Northerns 323s and retain all 350s.
     
  24. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    They'll have a handful of 170s going spare with Chase Line electrification in a few years.
     
  25. SpacePhoenix

    SpacePhoenix Established Member

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    Could the 185s goto SWT eventually with SWTs 158s and 159s then going to someone else? It wouldn't be quite a new fleet for the staff to learn as a lot of the stuff on the 185s must be common to 444s and 450s.
     
  26. Xenophon PCDGS

    Xenophon PCDGS Veteran Member

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    Was it not the case that the small number of 5-car Class 170 units that were on a short-term lease to Northern Rail until quite recently until returning back from whence they came seemed to be very poor in terms of operational reliability, according to comments made in postings from forum members who actually drove these units?
     
  27. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Think you mean Class 180, the units that were on loan from East Coast until a few years ago when they returned to FGW. The Adelantes (as with other Alstom post-privitisation products) have historically suffered from poor reliability - it can't have been causated by Northern alone :P
     
  28. Wolfie

    Wolfie Established Member

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    Unless loco hauled stock can maintain 158/159 timings, given that Waterloo and its approaches are one of the most congested areas on the whole rail network, hell yes!
     
  29. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

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    Don't forget that the reason SWT got rid of the 170s was so that they had a common fleet of 158/159s - with corridor connections!
     
  30. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

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    Am I right in thinking that the Chiltern 68+Mk3 can maintain 168 timings? If so, they could presumably match 158/159 timings between Basingstoke and Waterloo, or even beat them as they're 100mph-capable?

    Of course, there's the question of running costs, staff training and all that stuff, but surely with Gideon in charge of the economy there should be plenty of spare cash for a DfT grant or whatever...;)
     
  31. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    The SWT 158/159 fleet are used in 3 to 10 car formation in/out of Waterloo. that presents something of a challenge to loco+6+DVT formations
     
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