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Cascaded rolling stock

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Prestige15

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From my previous threads about the future of HST's.

What do you think would happen to the stocks that's soon going to be replaced in the coming years?

Class 91+mk4, 185, 360 (Heathrow), 365, etc

Very unclear whats gonna happen to the 91's apart from VTEC taking about seven of them, Some say going to MML, some say to Anglia and even some say going to freight duties.

For the 185's, TPE is taking 29 of them so where does that leaves the remaining 22? Could they be useful for the Anglia branch lines or ATW or would Northern grab them?

For the 365, I do expect the remaining 365's would end up with either Greater Anglia or Northern.

The 360's, i expect at least one kept as Heathrow shuttle as of today and the others sent to Greater Anglia to join with the 4 car 360's.

Any idea's of where they could end up going?
 
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Haydn1971

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I'm half expecting EMT to grab the 185s, run six carriages Nottingham-Liverpool, keep some 158s for runs out east.
 

jopsuk

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These are all topics that we've discussed ad nauseum on here...
 

Haydn1971

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It's a shame the 91s don't appear to have much of a future, but I'd expect the Mk4s to live on replacing Mk3s - perhaps with loco hauled on XC to replace the HSTs, all depends on the growth predictions, high growth means more AT300s, low growth means mend and make do with loco hauled Mk4s
 

D365

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Very unclear whats gonna happen to the 91's apart from VTEC taking about seven of them, Some say going to MML, some say to Anglia and even some say going to freight duties.

Scrap. They've reached the end of their design lifespan.

For the 185's, TPE is taking 29 of them so where does that leaves the remaining 22? Could they be useful for the Anglia branch lines or ATW or would Northern grab them?

Northern has apparently been ruled out of the 185s.

For the 365, I do expect the remaining 365's would end up with either Greater Anglia or Northern.

Why would Northern take the 365s? If they need more EMUs, they'll keep hold of some more 319s or order more 331s.

The 360's, i expect at least one kept as Heathrow shuttle as of today and the others sent to Greater Anglia to join with the 4 car 360's.

There's no need for a shuttle unit since the 2tph Connect service is being replaced with a 4tph Crossrail service. Heathrow owns the units directly so their future use is up to them.


These are all topics that we've discussed ad nauseum on here...

At least it's not been 442s again.
 

Prestige15

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I'm half expecting EMT to grab the 185s, run six carriages Nottingham-Liverpool, keep some 158s for runs out east.

Would the 222 be ideal for the Liverpool - Norwich once the MML get electrified? Unless they get converted to EMU has it has been mention a couple of time. Apparently they are cleared to run Nottingham - Norwich but I've never seen them on that section.
 

swt_passenger

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The 360's, i expect at least one kept as Heathrow shuttle as of today and the others sent to Greater Anglia to join with the 4 car 360's.

There'll be no point in any form of remainder Heathrow shuttle. Crossrail and Heathrow Express will both have 4 tph.

(That's actually the only point you've made that I think hasn't been suggested before.)
 

Harbornite

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Somehow I can't imagine 91s being used for freight work now, even though the intention had once been to use them on freight. There's already a surplu of more suitable locomotive's like class 66s.
 

Prestige15

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There'll be no point in any form of remainder Heathrow shuttle. Crossrail and Heathrow Express will both have 4 tph.

(That's actually the only point you've made that I think hasn't been suggested before.)

OK then, So do you think they could end up with the other 360's on the Anglia line?

There were plans on moving them to C2C apparently but been called off.
 

swt_passenger

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OK then, So do you think they could end up with the other 360's on the Anglia line?

Well I do, but you really need to start searching the forum for past threads, because unfortunately many of us have discussed all these matters about 5 or 6 times already this year.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Would the 222 be ideal for the Liverpool - Norwich once the MML get electrified? Unless they get converted to EMU has it has been mention a couple of time. Apparently they are cleared to run Nottingham - Norwich but I've never seen them on that section.

They lack the capacity required for this route.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Rolling stock allocations, and new purchases, are determined at franchise renewal time, for which there is a DfT schedule.
It's pointless trying to move the pieces on the chessboard when there is no prospect of changing the rolling stock mix on individual franchises for a number of years.
Each new franchise settlement also changes the options remaining for future franchises.
That's why the overdue East Anglia award is awaited with great interest (EMUs and DMUs).
Then there's the XC direct award to 2019 which is imminent, but don't hold your breath on that one changing anything.
 

Philip Phlopp

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That's why the overdue East Anglia award is awaited with great interest (EMUs and DMUs).

Then there's the XC direct award to 2019 which is imminent, but don't hold your breath on that one changing anything.

The XC award is also of interest - we need an idea on where DfT thinking is on additional capacity for the franchise, whether they're interested in bi-mode stock which gives a very early indication on the electrification priorities for CP6/CP7, and/or whether they're minded to give a derogation for the HST stock.
 

northwichcat

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The XC award is also of interest - we need an idea on where DfT thinking is on additional capacity for the franchise, whether they're interested in bi-mode stock which gives a very early indication on the electrification priorities for CP6/CP7, and/or whether they're minded to give a derogation for the HST stock.

Indeed. Also if the XC 170s are released it'll decrease the chance of more new DMUs being ordered by other operators in CP6. For instance, Northern need to secure 36 x 100mph capable DMU carriages in CP6 in addition to what's already been confirmed. If XC release their 170s then that's enough for Northern as well as there being some left over for another operator like LM or Anglia.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Indeed. Also if the XC 170s are released it'll decrease the chance of more new DMUs being ordered by other operators in CP6. For instance, Northern need to secure 36 x 100mph capable DMU carriages in CP6 in addition to what's already been confirmed. If XC release their 170s then that's enough for Northern as well as there being some left over for another operator like LM or Anglia.

There's a token track access application for XC on the ORR site, supposedly for the direct award period (2016-19).
It was submitted a year ago, admittedly, but all they are talking about is a bit more flexibility in the pathing of various existing services.
They say it will be the same stock on the same routes.
DfT may have different ideas now, of course.
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/17979/s17-xc-trains-application-form.pdf

This application is being made to secure access rights for the proposed direct award CrossCountry franchise, which would expire in October 2019. Following a pre-consultation meeting with the ORR we are applying for access until Subsidiary Change Date 2020 as per standard procedure for the end of a franchise.
The proposed contract varies little from the existing XCTL contract. It contains the same quantum of services as currently operate, over the same routes with the same rolling stock. The existing journey time protection, between Derby and Leeds/Newcastle, has been included.
 

D365

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There were plans on moving them to C2C apparently but been called off.

c2c were talking to Heathrow about borrowing two five-car units but that was never going to work out logistically. Hence their taking on six of the Porterbrook 387/3s.
 

Haydn1971

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Would the 222 be ideal for the Liverpool - Norwich once the MML get electrified? Unless they get converted to EMU has it has been mention a couple of time. Apparently they are cleared to run Nottingham - Norwich but I've never seen them on that section.


Transport for the North are making sounds about putting cascaded 390s onto the Hope Valley post HS2 Ph1.

I'd imagine that once HS2 starts construction, the DfT will start really need to start looking at long term uses for the express units from the turn of the millennium, such as the 220/221/222s, and the 390s, plus the AT300s that are being built for ECML and TPE and whatever gets placed on the MML and TPE post electrification.
 

Geeves

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390s on the Hope Valley, I guess some platform extensions might be required??
 

Geeves

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Coasting from Hazel Grove? I cant see the Hope Valley seeing electric trains this half of the century. I guess the tunnels would be a big job alone.
 

northwichcat

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There's a token track access application for XC on the ORR site, supposedly for the direct award period (2016-19).
It was submitted a year ago, admittedly, but all they are talking about is a bit more flexibility in the pathing of various existing services.
They say it will be the same stock on the same routes.
DfT may have different ideas now, of course.
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/17979/s17-xc-trains-application-form.pdf

I was thinking more of 170s released during the next XC franchise. For instance, the 18 x car 170s or equivalent for Northern are needed in 2022. I imagine the next LM and Anglia franchises will also need at least the option of increasing the number of diesel carriages in the franchise.
 

Haydn1971

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They say it will be the same stock on the same routes.

DfT may have different ideas now, of course.

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/17979/s17-xc-trains-application-form.pdf


That's very depressing to read, I suspect no changes are proposed because of the losses being made by the operator... Which I'm still baffled by, as the ticket prices are so high and the trains are generally so full where I use the services. Could more be done by reducing some services to hourly and using the displaced units to shore up capacity elsewhere where extra units are required ?
 

YorkshireBear

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That's very depressing to read, I suspect no changes are proposed because of the losses being made by the operator... Which I'm still baffled by, as the ticket prices are so high and the trains are generally so full where I use the services. Could more be done by reducing some services to hourly and using the displaced units to shore up capacity elsewhere where extra units are required ?

Maybe because the trains are too short? Must be difficult to get the required revenue when you are running an intercity service with a driver a guard just as ever other IC franchise but you have 4 carriages, 2 with crumple zones. Then once full catering can't make any money.... Spirals downhill.

I suspect there is a fair bit of fair evasion on some stretches too.

It is disappointing. I think with some key infrastructure enhancements, new longer trains the franchise could be a big success. But alas... it does not even look likely in the 2019 franchise from what I have read.
 

AndyW33

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I thought electrics were supposed to last longer - maybe 40 years?

All depends how long they were intended to last when they were designed.
EMUs certainly seem to have 40 year lives, but the Class 87s only lasted (apart from one) just over 30 years in UK service.
Part of the problem is the steady decline in rail freight and the high proportion of remaining freight terminals that are off the electric network. Surplus express passenger locos might be regeared and work out their remaining years on freight, if there was enough freight for them to haul.
 

bramling

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All depends how long they were intended to last when they were designed.
EMUs certainly seem to have 40 year lives, but the Class 87s only lasted (apart from one) just over 30 years in UK service.
Part of the problem is the steady decline in rail freight and the high proportion of remaining freight terminals that are off the electric network. Surplus express passenger locos might be regeared and work out their remaining years on freight, if there was enough freight for them to haul.

It probably doesn't help that the class 91 dates from the time when technology was advancing quickly, so the design was obsolete from the start. They have also been rather intensively worked.

Nonetheless, the 91/Mk4 concept offers, in my view, a quality travel experience for the passenger, so I'd like to see these trains find further use.
 

RobShipway

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Maybe because the trains are too short? Must be difficult to get the required revenue when you are running an intercity service with a driver a guard just as ever other IC franchise but you have 4 carriages, 2 with crumple zones. Then once full catering can't make any money.... Spirals downhill.

I suspect there is a fair bit of fair evasion on some stretches too.

It is disappointing. I think with some key infrastructure enhancements, new longer trains the franchise could be a big success. But alas... it does not even look likely in the 2019 franchise from what I have read.

I know this is going to sound silly and I believe it has been suggested before, but if VWC had trains to replace their class 221's, say like the Hitachi AT300 surely then the class 221's could then be moved to XC?

In an ideal world XC would also be using AT300 type trains that as well as having overhead electrical capability, also had third rail DC capability as per the class 395.
 
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