Caught by inspector in Manchester Victoria Station

[Bombastic348]

At this moment, I feel so ashamed of my attitude. The story begin like this, I use the salford crescent train station on the 2nd July,2012, I never miss paying off my train ticket however during that day the station counter did not open so I just board the train to manchester victoria however I realise that when I arrive to victoria station I did not have any cash on me but I have a local bank ATM which is only specifically be use in HSBC bank and atm machine from my country (sufficient fund), a credit card from my country and a debit card from Lloyds but insufficient fund and I went up to Manchester arena where Mcdonald is located. I know there is a ATM machine so I went to check to the atm machine and realise that it will not work. So, without any further thinking because of exam fever and stress, I went off down to the entrance of the mcdonald and just go down the staircase feeling nothing will happen but later I was caught. The reason why I did not go to see the officer in charges downstair because previous experience before my credit card and debit card, did not work so they ask to go up and get the cash in the ATM machine but luckily that time my lloyds tsb bank account have sufficient amount of money so I went and withdraw my money. I seldom carry a lot of money around because I know it is not safe. Due to reckless and without wise thinking I make a mistake that I realise that I will not get caught and unfortunately I did, however this is my first offense and I do not want to get prosecuted or convicted. I am willing to pay the full prices and the cost that I owe to Northern Rail.

 

[Bombastic348]

This is the letter that I received from Northern Rail.

 

[dave87016]

Sometimes it can be frustrating at Salford Crescent as there is only one person in ticket office at one time and numerous times I have seen it a sign at window saying back shortly, and on more than one occasion I have waited over half a hour and still no sign of the ticket office clerk and passengers are very unlikely to get to purchase a ticket onboard to Man Victoria as most guards have put their machines away.

However the fact you had "insufficient funds" on one card and unable to use your other card or withdraw money suggests you had no means of being able to pay for a ticket and therefore unable to purchase a ticket for the journey you made

I am sure someone with more knowledge of how to proceed will reply and advise you on how to respond

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Some questions:
(a) Was there any other way you could have paid for your ticket at Salford Crescent (PTT, TVM etc)?
(b) You tried to withdraw cash to pay for your ticket at Manchester Piccadily, but found that you had insufficient funds available?
(c) Did you decide to exit the station without explaining your predicament to a member of staff?

 

[Bombastic348]

(a) They is no ticket machine or whatsoever as Dave say is true so most of the students just board on the train and even the conductor never check train ticket from salford crescent to manchester victoria station if so they check i will voluntarily try all my card maybe there is possibly securing it.

(b) I went to the cooperative atm machine which is the only one in that area so I went to just take it look one more time just to read through the sign like visa or so on and I realise this will be risky because I worry my card will get swollen. At the moment I believe so that my llyods debit card has insufficient amount having planning to deposit in some money on that day. However, before I try to pay using debit card in the victoria station and credit card as well but it doesn't not work as the officer mention and the ask me to go up to withdraw some cash and luckily enough I have some cash there. So i withdraw and pay for it.

(c) No, I did not explain to them. As far as I concern I was not thinking right because I was so stress during the that month as it was a exam months so without wisely thinking I just go throughout the barrier which was upstair same as the mcdonald and the atm machine and exit the premises and the guard caught me.

And for your information that barrier does not have any guard at all because it is a pathway going up to mcdonald and also a pathway down to the train which is connected to the manchester areas. So unfortunate I am, I am willing to pay the cost of this without going to court.
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The guard actually did not wear any formal suit or whatsoever they were in disguise but however he did mentioned to his friend that I eventually went to the atm machine so that is a prove that I was trying to pay the ticket but for my personal risk I might happen to get my card back because the card only applicable for HSBC, I don't mind showing them the card I have now and ask them to try because it happen last year when I was using the card and luckily I was able to get the back the card after 20 minute of stuck in the atm machine and cannot use the card anymore. So during the summer I went back home to authorize the card back in my local bank to ensure that I am the one who put the card in the atm machine. So it fix.

 

[Bombastic348]

During the investigation by the officer, I was cooperative, I show him my railway card that is not expired or what so ever so I eventually tell him that I board without a ticket because salford crescent station counter is not open so I try to go to the cash machine believing that I can get out some cash but could not but then I just go off down thinking that it is okay. Now I get caught of a silly mistake that I should not have done at the first place. I admit is wrong but sometime is just that your brain does not think right at the moment.
Please guide me and advice me how can i go further from this.

[Mod Note - The duplicate threads on the same topic have been merged and tidied up.]

 

[bb21]

so I eventually tell him that I board without a ticket because salford crescent station counter is not open so I try to go to the cash machine believing that I can get out some cash but could not but then I just go off down thinking that it is okay.

If this is exactly what you said to the RPIs (Revenue Protection Inspectors) at Manchester Victoria, it sounds to me like you have already admitted to them that you travelled without the means to pay for your journey as you knew you did not have sufficient money with you.

An out-of-court settlement is a possibility, and the amount of £150 as indicated in your letter is a place to start, although there is no guarantee that they will accept it especially if it were an easy RoRA (Regulation of Railways Act) prosecution.

 

[snail]

I went to the cooperative atm machine which is the only one in that area so I went to just take it look one more time just to read through the sign like visa or so on and I realise this will be risky because I worry my card will get swollen.

Not much help in this situation but so you know in the future:
- all Bank ATMs will accept Visa cards - the only ones to avoid are those that don't have a bank name on them. These are usually easy to spot as they will have a sticker or display saying they will charge a fee for using them.
- it is very unusual for an ATM to keep a card not valid at that machine. It will usually spit it out, with a message on screen telling you why.

 

[island]

How would you have paid for your ticket if the ticket office at Salford Crescent (which doesn't have a ticket vending machine) had been open?

 

[Bombastic348]

I admit that I travel without a train ticket but however one of the officer in disguise mention to his colleague seeing me at the atm machine but then I just go off down the staircase. However, I have intention to pay but however found that my debit card is insufficient fund plus my local atm bank is not applicable to that atm machine which is only can be use in HSBC, his colleague saw me I went to the atm machine by all mean I intend to pay but unfortunately at the last resort I don't because both debit and my local card is not applicable. However, the reason why I did not go to the office is because what happen if my debit and credit card did not work? what will happen? I did not think of this before but what will happen to me?

 

[island]

- all Bank ATMs will accept Visa cards - the only ones to avoid are those that don't have a bank name on them. These are usually easy to spot as they will have a sticker or display saying they will charge a fee for using them.

Without wanting to get too far off topic, that isn't necessarily true. Lloyds TSB and RBS both issue (or at least used to issue) Visa debit cards which they will not permit to be used in ATMs other than their own (no restriction on use in shops).

However, it is correct to say that an ATM is very unlikely to retain a card just because it isn't accepting it.

 

[Bombastic348]

in a bit I will show you Island the atm card cause it does not have visa or chip on it. It is only specifically use in HSBC, they can even contact hsbc regard to this. In my country, we are using old atm card I guess so they is no chip visa or whatsoever.

 

[snail]

And for your information that barrier does not have any guard at all because it is a pathway going up to mcdonald and also a pathway down to the train which is connected to the manchester areas.

For those not familiar with the layout of Manchester Victoria, this is a stairway from the MEN Arena concourse directly to the link bridge between P3-P6. It is not normally manned, but can be when events are on. Station plan. As for the RPI being 'in disguise', they often wear ordinary suits, not a Northern uniform.

 

[Bombastic348]

Most of the students just board into the train if the counter is not open or no officer to issue the ticket and buy the ticket when arrive in the station they want to get out or possibly in the train but salford crescent to manchester victoria station, they never check your ticket because it is only 2 stops and I have a railway card 16 to 25 and I will get a discount of 98 p or 1.05 or 1.10, it depend. Salford crescent is nearby to University of Salford.

 

[Bombastic348]

As you see island, I block my name this is an example of the card tho which is applicable to be use in HSBC.

 

[Bombastic348]

As I mentioned before I only have one account in the UK which is Lllyods tab but at that moment it is insufficient although I have other of two cards which is my home country not the UK.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Llyods TSB

 

[snail]

Most of the students just board into the train if the counter is not open or no officer to issue the ticket and buy the ticket when arrive in the station they want to get out or possibly in the train but salford crescent to manchester victoria station, they never check your ticket because it is only 2 stops and I have a railway card 16 to 25 and I will get a discount of 98 p or 1.05 or 1.10, it depend. Salford crescent is nearby to University of Salford.

Yes, but your problem here is that you entered the platforms at Victoria without a ticket. That is different to arriving at Victoria on a train without a ticket. You could have exited the concourse where McDonalds is directly to the station concourse without going on to the platforms. Were you intending to catch a train back to Salford or trying to leave the station?

 

[island]

As you see island, I block my name this is an example of the card tho which is applicable to be use in HSBC.

OK, an ATM only card. That clarifies things. But please can you tell me:

How would you have paid for your ticket if the ticket office at Salford Crescent (which doesn't have a ticket vending machine) had been open?

(or if the guard had somehow managed to serve you on the train?)

 

[bb21]

I think there is some confusion here.

@OP, can you please confirm the following?

(1) Were you travelling from Salford Crescent to Manchester Victoria, or from Manchester Victoria to Salford Crescent?

(2) Where did you try to withdraw cash from the cash machine? At Salford Crescent or Manchester Victoria?

 

[Bombastic348]

Sorry, I came from salford crescent and arrive in victoria station platform and I go up to ATM machine (as I mentioned before) where McDonalds is. (You could have exited the concourse where McDonalds is directly to the station concourse without going on to the platforms) This is what I did but I was stop cause someone was in disguise.

 

[maniacmartin]

However, the reason why I did not go to the office is because what happen if my debit and credit card did not work?

In your situation I would have definitely gone to the ticket office to attempt to purchase a ticket with the cards that you did have. I believe UK ticket offices accept foreign credit cards that are VISA/Mastercard/AMEX, which most credit cards are internationally. I would have even tried to go overdrawn on your Lloyds TSB debit card, as you can later pay the bank charges and the problem goes away quite cheaply, unlike rail prosecutions which can be costly and can stick. By not attempting to pay at all, this doesn't look in the RPI's eyes.

I have to agree with bb21's diagnosis and advice.

 

[Bombastic348]

Snail, I was not intending to go back to salford.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Salford Crescent to Manchester Victoria (That was my journey)

The atm machine was in Manchester Victoria

 

[island]

The normal course of action when arriving at Manchester Victoria without a ticket is to see the person on the barrier who will sell you one, not to give oneself a tour of the station.

 

[Bombastic348]

There one time I arrive to the platform where the guard and approach them telling them I have no ticket from salford crescent so they just said paid here so I was using my credit card VISA but then it does not work at the card machine where the office normally hold using during the train. So they tell me to go up and withdraw some money and apparent that time my llyods tab bank account have few pound on it so I went back to pay them.

 

[Burtshire]

Can I assume you will be responding to the letter explaining what happened?

 

[island]

Edited - No longer relevant

 

[Bombastic348]

the office normally hold a card machine where we can use debit card or credit --> it does not work so yea. It was not a wise decision back then island is true I admit that mistake I should go and tell them but what if I say I have no sufficient cash or what so ever. Will they still charge me in this position for no paying? I just think of this just now. Probably before I board the train next time I will have some cash on me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That is the reason sometime major students is so angry at salford crescent station because the counter is always close and the station is quite small and only have one person guiding and always we can a sign saying back shortly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Even the journey between salford crescent to victoria station, they is no guard checking out ticket tho so if the guard was they I will probably try every card that I have on me showing my intention to pay. That is the reason why I purchased my railway 16 - 25, I want to save money but not the intention of having no paying them. At least I try some alternative to cut budget and pay them tho.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There "

 

[island]

If you boarded a train without having funds or access to funds to pay for a ticket, it would seem to me that you have committed an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, the consequences of which are shown on your letter and could affect your immigration status if you are not an EU citizen.

It is usually the case that an offer of a substantial contribution to Northern's administrative and enforcement costs in the matter will result in the prosecution not being taken any further, but that could well cost £200 or even more, even for a fare avoided of just £1!

Going back to my previous question: if the ticket office at Salford Crescent had been open, how would you have paid for your ticket? Please answer this straightforward question.

 

[snail]

(You could have exited the concourse where McDonalds is directly to the station concourse without going on to the platforms) This is what I did but I was stop cause someone was in disguise.

So they questioned you on the steps outside the barriers to P3, not the ones to the platforms? Surely by that point you had left the station (the Arena concourse is not part of the station) and were using the public access across the station concourse. Anyone going to or from the Arena or McDonalds would use exactly the same route and not have, or be required to have, a train ticket.

I'm not sure though how that impacts on your situation, as you had previously admitted travelling without a ticket. Others here know about these things much better than me so I will leave them to advise you.

 

[bb21]

That is the reason sometime major students is so angry at salford crescent station because the counter is always close and the station is quite small and only have one person guiding and always we can a sign saying back shortly.

If there is no facility to pay at the origin station, the passenger is allowed to purchase his ticket on the train, or at the destination if couldn't on the train.

Of course this is irrelevant as the main issue in your case seems to be not having sufficient funds at all.

Did you have enough money in your account for the fare at all at the time you travelled? (I know you couldn't withdraw anything as after all there might be less than £5 in your account.)

The fare should be £1.15 before 0930 on a weekday or £1 at all other times.