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Caught using wife’s oyster photo id card

WesternLancer

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Re item 3, courts do not investigate anything, that's not their function; they just deal with what is laid before them.
Ref 2 the solicitor would discuss the options with you and recommend what they thought was in your best interest

thank you for your advice and for your words. I am posting in this community just to seek an advice and possible options but some people think differently.

I have to agree with you that solicitor at this stage might wont help me but I have read some rare cases where they turned into final warnings.

I just wanted to avoid criminal conviction and I dont wanted to be in a situation where after some time I might flash back and questioned myself why I did not explore this last option.

Could you please help me to clarify few things:

1- if I plead guilty Fine and Victim charge how they will calculate? They will take average of my weekly/monthly earning? Let suppose I am earning £3000/month so how much they will chage?

2- If I use solicitor at this stage, he will probably plead not guilty to buy time?

3- If we plead not guilty so when trial will begin so will the court will stick to the matter as per the SJP? Or they can go further deep to investigate the previous usage of the card.

Thanks
Ref 2 the solicitor would advise you on what was in your best interests to do and explain the various consequences of different choices if there were options.
 
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Leo12

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Ref 2 the solicitor would discuss the options with you and recommend what they thought was in your best interest


Ref 2 the solicitor would advise you on what was in your best interests to do and explain the various consequences of different choices if there were options.
Thank you very much
 

spotify95

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thank you for your advice and for your words. I am posting in this community just to seek an advice and possible options but some people think differently.

I have to agree with you that solicitor at this stage might wont help me but I have read some rare cases where they turned into final warnings.

I just wanted to avoid criminal conviction and I dont wanted to be in a situation where after some time I might flash back and questioned myself why I did not explore this last option.

Could you please help me to clarify few things:

1- if I plead guilty Fine and Victim charge how they will calculate? They will take average of my weekly/monthly earning? Let suppose I am earning £3000/month so how much they will chage?

2- If I use solicitor at this stage, he will probably plead not guilty to buy time?

3- If we plead not guilty so when trial will begin so will the court will stick to the matter as per the SJP? Or they can go further deep to investigate the previous usage of the card.

Thanks
Most people who use a solicitor for TfL cases, do so when they receive their initial "Verification letter" by post. This gives the solicitors time to make a suitable case for the client, before TfL have made their decision on whether to issue a warning, or process the case for prosecution. Usually you get 10 days from when TfL send the letter out, to when they expect their latest replies.

I'm not sure whether I've seen any cases where a solicitor has turned an SJPN case into that of a final warning where TFL is concerned. With other ToC's (National Rail services) there have been cases where, even when SJP paperwork has been sent (usually due to no engagement with the initial letter) people have managed to negotiate out-of-court settlements with the ToCs and then contacted the courts to inform the court the case has been dropped by the ToC.
However, the key difference here is that ToC's (such as GTR/Thameslink, Chiltern, Northern, etc) prefer to settle out of court if they are happy that the offender will not re-offend again. TfL prefer to prosecute, even for relatively minor offences, and do not offer out-of-court settlements (where the person in question pays the fares due plus an admin cost to keep it out of court). When it comes to offences of a serious nature (which TfL class mis-use of high value passes, or Oyster cards, etc as a serious offence) then, generally speaking, the only way to stop it from reaching court is to use a solicitor, at point of receiving the first letter, and even then it is not guaranteed.

If you really don't want the matter escalating to court then you need to use a solicitor who specializes in rail fare evasion, however as mentioned there is not a 100% chance of success, and you don't want to pay solicitors' fees (circa £1000) on top of fines/court costs if the solicitor cannot keep it out of court.

As for your specific points...
1) If you are convicted in the courts, the fine and victim surcharge is usually taken as a percentage of your weekly income. From what I've read on here they tend to start at 50% of a weeks income, then go from there depending on factors. No one would know for certain what the amounts would be until/if the court issues the fine. This is why you have to declare your income to the courts, as if you don't, they assume a base figure, which may be more than what you can afford.
2) A solicitor would possibly plead not-guilty to buy time if the deadline is short. However, this would be more costly regarding the fine and surcharge if the solicitor could not keep the matter out of court, and a not-guilty plea would mean you'd have to attend court (rather than it being dealt with via the SJPN).
3) The court would use the evidence presented to them to determine whether the defendant (i.e. yourself) is guilty or not guilty of what you're being charged with. If TfL are using the Byelaws then they only need to prove the incident took place (which it did) to get a guilty verdict, rather than to prove intent, etc.

I'm sure others will be around to provide more complete advice if necessary.
 

Leo12

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Location
London
Hi guys!
I am filling the SJPN form to plead guilty. In terms of expenses and annual income should I mention my contractual salary or should I mention the average salary based on my payslips? Because I do lots of overtime so my payslip is always more than contracted hours.

Secondly my baby’s expenses are variable so should I just mention the random figure?

Kindly help me in this section.

Thanks
 

Haywain

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In terms of expenses and annual income should I mention my contractual salary or should I mention the average salary based on my payslips? Because I do lots of overtime so my payslip is always more than contracted hours.
The whole lot. If you had two jobs it would be the total of the two, so in the same way the court needs to know your total income including overtime.
 

WesternLancer

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Joined
12 Apr 2019
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10,156
Hi guys!
I am filling the SJPN form to plead guilty. In terms of expenses and annual income should I mention my contractual salary or should I mention the average salary based on my payslips? Because I do lots of overtime so my payslip is always more than contracted hours.
Probably avg salary based on your payslips based on your total income (but I'm guessing) - the point of the form being to assess your income - in my view your income is what you get paid, and if that is more than your contracted salary then that is what you should declare (and then you can't be accused of deliberately avoiding declaring income to a court which in my view is absolutely what you do not want to be accused of!)

Secondly my baby’s expenses are variable so should I just mention the random figure?
I'd tend to apply my principle above - some kind of average figure that reflects truly what the expenses are

Kindly help me in this section.

Thanks
Court experts on here might know the answers to your question better than my guesses.

Presumably the intention is that the court can understand clearly your income and expenditure, and you must be honest about both of those - ie not trying to pretend income is lower than it really is and expenditure is higher than it really is in order to obtain less punishment (in this case a lower fine) - and that if questioned by the court about it you can stand by what you said and say 'I was being honest in what I stated on the form'

But please appreciate I am giving my personal opinion on this - not a subject experts opinion.
 

AndroidBango

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London
Hi guys!
I am filling the SJPN form to plead guilty. In terms of expenses and annual income should I mention my contractual salary or should I mention the average salary based on my payslips? Because I do lots of overtime so my payslip is always more than contracted hours.

Secondly my baby’s expenses are variable so should I just mention the random figure?

Kindly help me in this section.

Thanks
This seems like a question best directed to the court.
 

furlong

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28 Mar 2013
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should I mention my contractual salary or should I mention the average salary based on my payslips?
Average net pay based on recent payslips i.e. what you actually take home after taxes have been deducted. They can ask to see payslips (and even a tax return) so make sure anything you tell them would line up against that evidence!

On expenses, they want sensible average figures but their focus is towards wanting to know about essential unavoidable outgoings - they're likely to disregard discretionary items.

(If the numbers are expected to change significantly shortly, up or down, they have the ability to take account of that e.g. using the 'other information' box.)
 

Leo12

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11 Nov 2024
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Location
London
Hi,

I am filling the SJPN form and there is a section in which we have to write mitigation circumstance for court to consider if I want to say something before court can decide my case. So should I write the same statement what I responded to the TFL verification letter? Court usually consider the statement or it is just a formality?

I am just worried about the court will stick to the said offence (single offence) or court can order to check the card usage history.
 

AlterEgo

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30 Dec 2008
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Hi,

I am filling the SJPN form and there is a section in which we have to write mitigation circumstance for court to consider if I want to say something before court can decide my case. So should I write the same statement what I responded to the TFL verification letter? Court usually consider the statement or it is just a formality?

I am just worried about the court will stick to the said offence (single offence) or court can order to check the card usage history.
You can write the same statement you gave TfL. The court will consider the statement when levying the amount of fine, but there is not very much leeway with regard to that.
 

Leo12

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11 Nov 2024
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Location
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Hi All,

From the heavy hear I would like to share today I got fine letter from court and they asked me to pay £430 in total.

I have tried my best to take this matter out of court but TFL didnt accept any circumstance. I will pay the fine in couple of days. I have few questions now and I would appreciate if anyone can respond.

With this fine now it means my criminal record has recorded and now I have to disclose every where? I was reading at TFL it says these offences are non recordable and are not even recorded in PNC is it true?

Secondly I want to test my dbs so what do you think when should I try to order a dbs to check whether it is recorded or not?

Once again thank you all for all helping me out in my case. A life lesson learnt.
 

AlterEgo

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With this fine now it means my criminal record has recorded and now I have to disclose every where? I was reading at TFL it says these offences are non recordable and are not even recorded in PNC is it true?
They are recorded in the court records but should not be on the PNC.

Secondly I want to test my dbs so what do you think when should I try to order a dbs to check whether it is recorded or not?
You will not be able to test this. Non recordable bylaw offences are only ever disclosed - if the circumstances are relevant - on an Enhanced DBS which you cannot do for yourself. These are role specific and are only conducted by potential employers or agencies.

You remain obliged to disclose the conviction until it is spent, which is in your case one year.
 

Leo12

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They are recorded in the court records but should not be on the PNC.


You will not be able to test this. Non recordable bylaw offences are only ever disclosed - if the circumstances are relevant - on an Enhanced DBS which you cannot do for yourself. These are role specific and are only conducted by potential employers or agencies.

You remain obliged to disclose the conviction until it is spent, which is in your case one year.
Ok thats fine.

This is the receipt we normally get, when we pay the fine online by card? Thanks
 

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Hadders

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Thanks for updating us on the outcome of your case.

Byelaw conviction aren't normally recorded on the Police National Computer so don't normally show on DBS checks. That said, a Byelaw conviction is a criminal conviction and is a matter of public record. Organisations do have other ways of finding out if you have been convicted of an offence. It's always best to be honest if you are asked if you have a conviction but I wouldn't expect a conviction for a minor railway ticketing issue to adversely impact career prospects as long as you disclose it when required to do so.
 

Leo12

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Thanks for updating us on the outcome of your case.

Byelaw conviction aren't normally recorded on the Police National Computer so don't normally show on DBS checks. That said, a Byelaw conviction is a criminal conviction and is a matter of public record. Organisations do have other ways of finding out if you have been convicted of an offence. It's always best to be honest if you are asked if you have a conviction but I wouldn't expect a conviction for a minor railway ticketing issue to adversely impact career prospects as long as you disclose it when required to do so.
Thank you for your continuous help so far. I work as Security Officer and I hold SIA licence. On my SIA portal it says any conviction, fine, caution we have to report it to SIA and they have given a list of offences. But I couldnt find any tfl bye law conviction in the list. So I am confused should I report this to them or not? I dont want to jeopardise my job at this stage as I am financially very struggling.

My next renewal is due in end of 2026 and they always run basic/standard dbs check before renewing the licence so based on that there is a possibility that my dbs will come clear and there is no need to disclose the spent conviction. What do you suggest?
 

Titfield

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Thank you for your continuous help so far. I work as Security Officer and I hold SIA licence. On my SIA portal it says any conviction, fine, caution we have to report it to SIA and they have given a list of offences. But I couldnt find any tfl bye law conviction in the list. So I am confused should I report this to them or not? I dont want to jeopardise my job at this stage as I am financially very struggling.

My next renewal is due in end of 2026 and they always run basic/standard dbs check before renewing the licence so based on that there is a possibility that my dbs will come clear and there is no need to disclose the spent conviction. What do you suggest?

Is the list of offences non exhaustive ie it does not include every single offence there could be as that would take up to much space or itself be confusing?

You do say "any offence" which suggests that even spent convictions should be declared.
 

AlterEgo

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Thank you for your continuous help so far. I work as Security Officer and I hold SIA licence. On my SIA portal it says any conviction, fine, caution we have to report it to SIA and they have given a list of offences. But I couldnt find any tfl bye law conviction in the list. So I am confused should I report this to them or not? I dont want to jeopardise my job at this stage as I am financially very struggling.

My next renewal is due in end of 2026 and they always run basic/standard dbs check before renewing the licence so based on that there is a possibility that my dbs will come clear and there is no need to disclose the spent conviction. What do you suggest?
This is a question best asked of the SIA.

However, the SIA is exempt from the provisions of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act, meaning you must declare all convictions, even spent ones. If you do not disclose it, you will be committing a further, and more serious offence. This means that, when applying to the SIA, you have to declare your bylaw conviction for all time, that is, forever.

Whether you believe they will find out otherwise if you conceal it or not is not relevant. DBS checks are not the only mechanism at the disposal of agencies like the SIA.
 

jumble

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They are recorded in the court records but should not be on the PNC.


You will not be able to test this. Non recordable bylaw offences are only ever disclosed - if the circumstances are relevant - on an Enhanced DBS which you cannot do for yourself. These are role specific and are only conducted by potential employers or agencies.

You remain obliged to disclose the conviction until it is spent, which is in your case one year.
This may be true in theory
In practice it is not very difficult to obtain an enhanced DBS if one is determined
Don't ask me how I know !
 

JordR

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31 Aug 2014
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Leeds
You may be okay with SIA, provided you disclose it. Check whether you have to proactively disclose it now and not wait until your next renewal.

It's a very minor crime and is not one of dishonesty, their website seems to suggest this will not be an automatic reason to refuse a licence.
 

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