Caution issued on train but I had ticket

[Becks]

I have an annual season ticket (£5,000) for travel on any permitted route between Brighton and London - standard class.

It is the ill fated misery Southern Trains. Having recently changed jobs I no longer use Southern as need to use Thameslink between Brighton - London.

The new Thameslink trains are horrid with no tables and literally like cattle carts. I need to work on the train so decided that first class would be better as there is a table.

I went into Brighton ticket office and showed my annual gold card and said I want to pay to upgrade to first class on Thameslink. I was categorically informed that all new Thameslink trains first class is declassified so a standard ticket is fine. So I have been sitting in First class ab on occasions inside the carriage on the digital display it does state that any ticket can be in use to sit in first class. I also have asked the same question about upgrading at a London station and was told the same - no upgrade as no first class in operation currently.

Tonight on my way home tickets are checked my ticket/fraud prevention officers and like many others sitting in first class we were told we were breaking the law.

I explained what I’ve been told etc and said look I have a ticket for £5,000 do you really think I’m trying to avoid paying. So I said I’m hacked off because clearly station staff are giving out the wrong info so I’ll just pay the difference now but he said it was a criminal matter and would caution me.

So he wanted a formal statement, date of birth and all sorts which I refused to give on the basis I had a ticket and had offered to pay the price diffrnacw despite their incompetent staff.

Anyway I refused to sign anything but want to know what will happen?

I thought that they have to give you the opportunity to pay there and then. There were around 10 other passengers who all had tickets and were told the train was declassified and they issued everyone with a caution.

 

[Starmill]

Yikes. Not an easy situation.

This might seem a strange thing to ask, but can you remember if you were in the first class area at the front or the back of the train?

 

[sheff1]

I thought that they have to give you the opportunity to pay there and then. There were around 10 other passengers who all had tickets and were told the train was declassified and they issued everyone with a caution.

Welcome.

They do not have to give you an opportunity to pay there and then if you have done something wrong, but if you were all given permission by staff to travel in that part of the train then you have not done anything wrong.

Others will be able to assist you further.

 

[furlong]

And what time was this train? (Confirm the timetable does say it carried first class, so you're relying on verbal authorisation from staff.)

How long ago was it that the ticket offices gave you this information?

You could ask a friend to ask the same question and see what answer they are given. Or you could try asking in a different ticket office. If they say the same, try to get it in writing or record it on a phone. It's probably best not to talk to the people who told you before directly (though you might obtain their badge names or other means of identification such as time and window number if you recognise them) as you might later require witness statements from them.

 

[furlong]

(Season ticket holder or otherwise, the rules don't allow you to upgrade on board. If they had agreed to sell a ticket it should either have been a new first class ticket for the complete journey or a Penalty Fare.)

 

[MG11]

I have an annual season ticket (£5,000) for travel on any permitted route between Brighton and London - standard class.

It is the ill fated misery Southern Trains. Having recently changed jobs I no longer use Southern as need to use Thameslink between Brighton - London.

The new Thameslink trains are horrid with no tables and literally like cattle carts. I need to work on the train so decided that first class would be better as there is a table.

I went into Brighton ticket office and showed my annual gold card and said I want to pay to upgrade to first class on Thameslink. I was categorically informed that all new Thameslink trains first class is declassified so a standard ticket is fine. So I have been sitting in First class ab on occasions inside the carriage on the digital display it does state that any ticket can be in use to sit in first class. I also have asked the same question about upgrading at a London station and was told the same - no upgrade as no first class in operation currently.

Tonight on my way home tickets are checked my ticket/fraud prevention officers and like many others sitting in first class we were told we were breaking the law.

I explained what I’ve been told etc and said look I have a ticket for £5,000 do you really think I’m trying to avoid paying. So I said I’m hacked off because clearly station staff are giving out the wrong info so I’ll just pay the difference now but he said it was a criminal matter and would caution me.

So he wanted a formal statement, date of birth and all sorts which I refused to give on the basis I had a ticket and had offered to pay the price diffrnacw despite their incompetent staff.

Anyway I refused to sign anything but want to know what will happen?

I thought that they have to give you the opportunity to pay there and then. There were around 10 other passengers who all had tickets and were told the train was declassified and they issued everyone with a caution.

Were the signs displayed to say that the train was declassified on THAT exact journey? Thamselink have some routes where some services are declassified and others aren't. Did the station staff tell you that EVERY Thameslink service for London from Brighton is declassified? What questions did the Revenue Protection Officer ask you, e.g. "if I had not found you, how would you have paid for your First Class journey"?

 

[furlong]

I think the point here is that Thameslink has been trying to make it generally known that the rear section (only) is always declassified regardless of whether or not the electronic signage gets set up correctly on any particular journey. But that simple message might have become confused (amongst some passengers and some staff) with the signage on some trains showing front instead of back and others forgetting to show it at all?

 

[furlong]

Twitter

The rear first class carriage is declassified on all our 700 trains Roger. T

Twitter

It remains declassified for now and has been for sometime for now. Any changes will be broadcast over the feed/website. M

 

[furlong]

Explanation (in the context of the Northern end of the route)

On the Class 700 trains the DfT specified 26 First Class seats at both the front and the rear of each train, i.e. 52 in total. The total number of First Class seats fitted exceeds current demand. As a result, it has been agreed with the DfT that, on ‘fast’ trains, the 1st Class seats at the front of the train (in direction of travel) are for 1st Class ticketholders while the 1st Class seats at the rear (in direction of travel) are always be declassified and available for Standard Class ticketholders. On ‘all stations’ and on semi-fast services (calling at all stations to Mill Hill Broadway and then fast to West Hampstead Thameslink) that have always been designated as ‘Standard Class only’ all 1st Class seats, both at the front and the rear of the train are declassified. This has been the case for many years.

 

[MG11]

So the key questions here are was the OP sat in the front or rear compartment and did station staff explain that First Class was declassified in the rear section only?

 

[furlong]

Basically, yes, that's how it seems. They might want logs from the train to show whether or not the correct electronic message had been set up (and if it was wrong, on what proportion of services this has happened), might dispute whether it's sufficient anyway given the "10 other passengers" (posters? website?), logs to show whether or not the platform CIS was also showing it correctly, witness statements from the staff that allegedly misstated the policy, possible checks whether or not other staff are communicating the correct message today etc. - and the DfT's role might even be examined (which it might prefer to avoid).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rather than having 1st "dynamically" declassified in the confusing way it is, why don't they permanently declassify one end? There aren't any opportunities for the sets to end up backwards on Thameslink, are there?

Personally I think (having sat there yesterday) it is massively confusing and a terrible idea, worse than just having too much 1st.

 

[jon0844]

I think it's fine to have it as it is, as you'll always know which end is declassified. If the unit is ever reversed, it makes zero difference to either first class or standard class ticket holders.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's fine to have it as it is, as you'll always know which end is declassified. If the unit is ever reversed, it makes zero difference to either first class or standard class ticket holders.

At the moment it's somewhat of a "people in the know club", though. The PIS does mention it but only visually, not audibly (discrimination? Is that legal?) and nowhere else in the train does it say so, and it is still marked 1st.

In my view a very poor solution indeed.

TBH given that Thameslink has but one end-on terminus (Brighton) I'm actually surprised it didn't go in the middle in one chunk.

At the *very* least a permanent sticker on the door is needed, though that doesn't deal with the issue of blind people not being informed.

 

[cuccir]

Urgh, this seems a mightily unclear situation and no wonder passengers are confused by it.

I'd be surprised if this level of communication would be acceptable to allow a prosecution to proceed. Bletchleyite highlights accessibility issues, and the communication and lack of differentiation between declassified first class and actual first class in the train itself is potentially misleading. It's fully believable that ticket office staff would have misheard, misunderstood or been misinformed about this and would therefore give passengers the wrong advice.

So he wanted a formal statement, date of birth and all sorts which I refused to give on the basis I had a ticket and had offered to pay the price diffrnacw despite their incompetent staff.

Anyway I refused to sign anything but want to know what will happen?

Did you give your name and address? Presuming you did, Thameslink may write to you threatening prosecution and asking for your side of the story. How you respond depends a little on how much hassle you're prepared to put up with; making the arguments I outline above in court would probably requite a solicitor which is of course not free. So there may be merit in responding explaining the confusion, and offering to pay the difference for the journey (don't mention multiple journeys), even though it's not really right. But I'm getting ahead of ourselves here: wait first to see if they do make contact with you.

You could ask a friend to ask the same question and see what answer they are given. Or you could try asking in a different ticket office. If they say the same, try to get it in writing or record it on a phone.

I think going to a ticket office, asking the question again, and asking them to write this down or somehow confirm it would be useful.

 

[AlterEgo]

Did you give your name and address? Presuming you did, Thameslink may write to you threatening prosecution and asking for your side of the story.

The OP has a season ticket and I expect TL will take the details from that.

 

[MikeWh]

There aren't any opportunities for the sets to end up backwards on Thameslink, are there?

8 car sets reverse regularly every time they go round the Sutton loop. Do 12 cars ever go that way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

8 car sets reverse regularly every time they go round the Sutton loop. Do 12 cars ever go that way.

Good point!

 

[tsr]

8 car sets reverse regularly every time they go round the Sutton loop. Do 12 cars ever go that way.

There would be little point in booking 12 coach trains to run via the Sutton/Wimbledon loop, except perhaps if displaced during disruption. The platforms which TL use at Sutton (and obviously the Core stations) are 12 coaches in length, but I don't think any of the others on the loop are...

P.S. 700s could also end up reversing if turned via Lewes, which is a TL diversion route.

 

[jon0844]

At the moment it's somewhat of a "people in the know club", though. The PIS does mention it but only visually, not audibly (discrimination? Is that legal?) and nowhere else in the train does it say so, and it is still marked 1st.

I think just about every commuter knows. They all go for the back of the train!

But I have thought the same - why isn't there an audible announcement in addition to the display? But should it be broadcast in the whole train, or just in that section like the screens?

 

[farleigh]

It does seem a rather unfortunate situation in which people could be innocently caught out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think just about every commuter knows. They all go for the back of the train!

But I have thought the same - why isn't there an audible announcement in addition to the display? But should it be broadcast in the whole train, or just in that section like the screens?

I can see why they don't want to broadcast it and end up with everyone running for it. Though that said I gave it a try and I'll be honest, I preferred a priority spaced "ironing board", the seats were not that comfortable.

But I think you need to know it's declassified before entering and without standing there for 2 minutes waiting for the PIS to cycle.

A reasonable solution would be a sticker on the door saying something like:

FIRST CLASS - available to First Class ticket holders only

EXCEPT

On services which do not run beyond Luton northbound / the Sutton loop southbound, available to Standard ticket holders throughout.

On other services, available to Standard ticket holders at the rear of the train only.

But TBH I'd just make it First Class on all trains. It's pointlessly confusing over what is only 4 table bays of space at each end.

 

[jon0844]

If people think both ends are first class at each end, even if one, or both, ends aren't then there's no real harm done.

On the GN side, people have been quietly enjoying first class on many services with no announcements being made - simply by having checked the timetable and keeping quiet!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If people think both ends are first class at each end, even if one, or both, ends aren't then there's no real harm done.

The harm is that RPIs think that. Though they could of course just train them properly.

 

[daodao]

The harm is that RPIs think that. Though they could of course just train them properly.

If the train carries 1st class accommodation and is advertised as providing it, then surely all 1st class zones on the train should be regarded as 1st class unless there are clearly visible printed notices on the doors declassifying the 1st class accommodation.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

8 car sets reverse regularly every time they go round the Sutton loop. Do 12 cars ever go that way.

I'm just imagining the fun as a TL train goes round the loop and the all the 1st class pax have to change ends at Sutton. The loop trains are, of course, always destination 'Sutton via xx' and strictly speaking become a different train on the system in the platform there for their return to the city so the 1st class is magically transferred to the other end of the train.
There are actually a few am trains that are marked in the TT as having first class provision from Sutton (eg. 0740) (as well as all of those from Orpington/Beckenham inbound) so on those no free standard class upgrades are presumably available, not withstanding the apparent rule that Wimbledon loop trains have no 1st class? (And there are first class fares in the system from Sutton to Thameslink destinations.) So plenty of entertainment for all, if anyone out there fancies a visit to Sarf London! And lots for RPIs to do.
No wonder rail has a reputation with the public for being 'complicated'.

 

[AM9]

I'm just imagining the fun as a TL train goes round the loop and the all the 1st class pax have to change ends at Sutton. ...

No, they don't need to move at all. The train keeps travelling in the same direction so the rear 1st class saloon stays at the rear. The train has then turned around on the main line.

 

[Haywain]

In any event, Sutton loop trains are standard class only and, on the stations I frequent, are always announced as such. The announcement clearly advises that "passengers may use any part of this train".

 

[James H]

I’m currently sitting in the declassified first class at the back of an 8 car 700 heading to Brighton.

It’s standing room only in standard class with seats available behind the partition that people don’t realise they are allowed to use. The current situation is a mess.

 

[BestWestern]

Surely this whole situation is utter nonsense and TOCs need a boot up their backside. Talk about entrapment!