Central / Victoria poor interchange experience at Oxford Circus

[miklcct]

I work in High Holborn and the best route to most destinations in the south west requires changing between the Central line and Victoria line at Oxford Circus, however, the interchange experience at station during the evening peak is poor and extremely stressful because of poor station design.

The following is my observation:

1. After alighting the Central line train, you need to walk to the western end of the platform. People walking along the platform to one end is not good for circulation. By the time the passengers from the other end have walked there, the next train would have already arrived.
2. In order to access the southbound Bakerloo and Victoria platforms, you will then need to walk up a floor of stairs.
3. The top of the stairs directly lead to the front of the southbound platform, and the platform is too narrow to allow peak-hour crowds to walk along it to the centre of it. Combined with the fact that the exit to National Rail is at the front of the train, people then accumulate at the front at the platform, which will eventually cause crowding on the stairs - a dangerous situation.
4. Finally, a Victoria line train comes. People start boarding the train. People can finally move along the platform to further back the train and find a space to squeeze on, but the clearing at the front is slow as that part is crowded, hampering the progress of others who wish to walk along the platform.
5. The driver seems to be in a hurry to close the doors before the crowd from the tunnel and at the front is fully dispersed, resulting in people jumping onto a crowded part of the train, possibly blocking the door, or resulting in people missing the train because the dwell time is not enough for people to get to a less-crowded part of the train.

This is an extremely poor experience making my journeys extremely stressful on the Victoria line, and I would like to know how this design and timetable could even be approved in terms of health and safety with the current crowd level. It is impossible to stop people from going to Oxford Circus, and given that it is a three-line interchange, platforms comparable to the size of Elizabeth line core are needed to handle such levels of crowd, and clearly the Victoria line platforms can't handle the job. What should we do in order to force TfL to correct the mistake 60 years ago and fix the design at the station, such that people can circulate efficiently with 36 trains per hour?

 

[JonathanH]

What should we do in order to force TfL to correct the mistake 60 years ago and fix the design at the station, such that people can circulate efficiently with 36 trains per hour?

Provide it with more funding?

I wonder how high a priority it even is to sort out in the grand scheme of things TfL need to do.

Was it actually a mistake 60 years ago or just a design that didn't envisage the numbers of passengers now using it.

 

[miklcct]

Provide it with more funding?

I wonder how high a priority it even is to sort out in the grand scheme of things TfL need to do.

Was it actually a mistake 60 years ago or just a design that didn't envisage the numbers of passengers now using it.

I would say that the Northern line (Camden Town, Clapham North / Clapham Common) should be the highest priority, followed by the Victoria line (measured by the level of overcrowding).

More trains won't help if the stations can't cope with the load.

 

[The exile]

Would suggest that there are much higher priorities for any funding - getting provision anywhere in the country up to London standard, for a start.
As to the actual question, nothing. No-one can “force” TfL to do anything (other than the authorities forcing closure on safety grounds).

 

[swt_passenger]

You could spend billions on a relief line for the Central Line, providing a significant number of alternative route options.

AIUI that relief line then had to skip Oxford Circus, because the major improvements to passenger circulation that would be needed in the existing station, were deemed to be impossible to build at a reasonable cost.

I think the only medium term answer to the OP is to choose a different route.

 

[Mojo]

I actually think interchange at Oxford Circus between those two lines is quite good. I change between those lines at Oxford Circus twice a day. The Northbound journey is even better now since the upgrade at Victoria, as typically Car 8 on Northbound Victoria line trains is empty, which coincidentally is the best car to be in for exiting at Kings +.

 

[Somewhere]

Destinations in the southwest of what?
You could walk to Waterloo from High Holborn if it's destinations in the southwest of London.
If it's the southwest of England, stay on the Central Line to Lancaster Gate for Paddington where trains to the southwest of England go from

 

[Falcon1200]

Oxford Circus was extensively rebuilt in the 1960s to provide cross-platform interchange between the Victoria and Bakerloo lines, but even then it is imperfect when changing between south and northbound trains on each route, hence the option of using the Green Park dodge. Doing any more would surely be unbelievably expensive and disruptive, given that all the lines are underground!

 

[Tetchytyke]

That walking route you have described isn’t the only interchange route between the Central Line and Victoria/Bakerloo Line platforms at Oxford Circus. If you don’t like it, choose another route through the station.

It is how it is at that station, any changes would be prohibitively expensive and are highly unlikely to happen any time soon.

3D maps of every Underground station – NOPQRS

TfL has released another batch of documents which show every underground station in glorious 3D format.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

 

[notverydeep]

What should we do in order to force TfL to correct the mistake 60 years ago and fix the design at the station, such that people can circulate efficiently with 36 trains per hour?

TfL has a very long list of station capacity constraints it would very much like to improve, almost certainly including this one (which is certainly very busy). These must be prioritised along with other upgrades and essential renewals to the funding available from fares and from government.

 

[miklcct]

Destinations in the southwest of what?
You could walk to Waterloo from High Holborn if it's destinations in the southwest of London.
If it's the southwest of England, stay on the Central Line to Lancaster Gate for Paddington where trains to the southwest of England go from

Anywhere on the South Western Railway network.

The fastest route is to enter the tube network at Chancery Lane, then change at Oxford Circus, then Vauxhall again, although at some circumstances journey planner may suggest me to change at Bank and Waterloo, or take the bus 243 or 341 if the SWR train concerned does not stop at Vauxhall.

 

[Recessio]

A lot of the Victoria line stations were built on the cheap and aren't really up to the job of carrying modern passenger numbers. I'm sure with an infinite money pot TfL would love to fix them, but other matters take priority.

Look how long it took to get Bank sorted, possibly the most important interchange on the system in peak commuter hours. The other stations will take an awful long time to get fixed, if ever.

 

[bramling]

I work in High Holborn and the best route to most destinations in the south west requires changing between the Central line and Victoria line at Oxford Circus, however, the interchange experience at station during the evening peak is poor and extremely stressful because of poor station design.

The following is my observation:

1. After alighting the Central line train, you need to walk to the western end of the platform. People walking along the platform to one end is not good for circulation. By the time the passengers from the other end have walked there, the next train would have already arrived.
2. In order to access the southbound Bakerloo and Victoria platforms, you will then need to walk up a floor of stairs.
3. The top of the stairs directly lead to the front of the southbound platform, and the platform is too narrow to allow peak-hour crowds to walk along it to the centre of it. Combined with the fact that the exit to National Rail is at the front of the train, people then accumulate at the front at the platform, which will eventually cause crowding on the stairs - a dangerous situation.
4. Finally, a Victoria line train comes. People start boarding the train. People can finally move along the platform to further back the train and find a space to squeeze on, but the clearing at the front is slow as that part is crowded, hampering the progress of others who wish to walk along the platform.
5. The driver seems to be in a hurry to close the doors before the crowd from the tunnel and at the front is fully dispersed, resulting in people jumping onto a crowded part of the train, possibly blocking the door, or resulting in people missing the train because the dwell time is not enough for people to get to a less-crowded part of the train.

This is an extremely poor experience making my journeys extremely stressful on the Victoria line, and I would like to know how this design and timetable could even be approved in terms of health and safety with the current crowd level. It is impossible to stop people from going to Oxford Circus, and given that it is a three-line interchange, platforms comparable to the size of Elizabeth line core are needed to handle such levels of crowd, and clearly the Victoria line platforms can't handle the job. What should we do in order to force TfL to correct the mistake 60 years ago and fix the design at the station, such that people can circulate efficiently with 36 trains per hour?

Oxford Circus station has been problematic from the day it opened. The Bakerloo Line passageways have been altered many times since opening. To be honest I’m not sure what could realistically be done without spending massive amounts of money, which presently doesn’t exist, and if it did could probably be better utilised elsewhere. Holborn, for example, has been crying out for a congestion relief scheme for many years, and is consistently worse than Oxford Circus.

I realise this isn’t overly helpful, but this is where things are at, unfortunately.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

If it's the southwest of England, stay on the Central Line to Lancaster Gate for Paddington where trains to the southwest of England go from

Those commuting via Paddington to the City realised more than fifty years ago that the walk between Paddington and Lancaster Gate didn't seem any longer than the underground walk at Oxford Circus between the Central and southbound or northbound Bakerloo. It was well known. In the days before zonal tickets, season tickets with dual National Rail and Underground validity were issued to Paddington and then Lancaster Gate to one of the City stations on the Central.

 

[SynthD]

What national rail are you referring to?

The station was last expanded for the Victoria line. It passed the crowding standards of the time, you could probably find how many passengers they expected it to cope with. It wasn’t designed to meet current numbers and current standards. Should the timetable be more frequent to clear the platforms, or less frequent in a poor attempt to reduce demand?

There are a very short list of platforms that have had the work you suggest, I can think of Bank and Angel so far. The OC platforms are similar to all the other original platforms on the network. You are asking to open an extremely expensive tap, because why stop after OC?

 

[Recessio]

There are a very short list of platforms that have had the work you suggest, I can think of Bank and Angel so far. The OC platforms are similar to all the other original platforms on the network. You are asking to open an extremely expensive tap, because why stop after OC?

Euston too, when the Victoria line was added, the former C&SLR island platform tunnel was rerouted to be two separate platforms. But yes you are right, it is very expensive, and so far seems to be done at an average rate of once every thirty years...

 

[35B]

What national rail are you referring to?

The station was last expanded for the Victoria line. It passed the crowding standards of the time, you could probably find how many passengers they expected it to cope with. It wasn’t designed to meet current numbers and current standards. Should the timetable be more frequent to clear the platforms, or less frequent in a poor attempt to reduce demand?

There are a very short list of platforms that have had the work you suggest, I can think of Bank and Angel so far. The OC platforms are similar to all the other original platforms on the network. You are asking to open an extremely expensive tap, because why stop after OC?

And that expansion was a kludging together of two stations built completely independently, not the scale and level of complete rebuild that we saw at Kings Cross.

 

[A60stock]

I was surprised that when the Victoria line was built, that the cross platform interchange was not done with the central line instead of the bakerloo**, as I assume most interchanges are between the central and victoria, being two of the principle lines on the system, where as the bakerloo is not.

**I would imagine its because the alignment of the central line platforms are not in an ideal direction, being East-West, where as the Bakerloo is North-South, in a similar direction to the Victoria

 

[duncombec]

As alluded to above, many who do or did commute to London find all sorts of methods and ways that turn out to be quicker (or only marginally slower but significantly less stressful), despite not being offered by whatever "journey planner" is being used.

Depending on how much quicker than Google you are, if you're loosing time on your public transport journey, Google maps suggests a 32 minute walk between Chancery Lane and Waterloo - experience tells me that's about 25 minutes at my pace. Similarly, if needing to circulate via Victoria, how about walking to Temple, then using the District and Circle? Or walking to Holborn, then using the Piccadilly and changing at Green Park?

In my experience, the best way was to find a method, hone it well, and stick to it. I can recall getting irritated over little things like a closed pedestrian crossing meaning I had a walk further, the gates to St Paul's churchyard being closed which meant I had to walk "the long way around", or, very apt for this time of year, the staging for the Lord Mayor's Show being de/constructed, likewise. However, all of those methods were faster for my journey (at that time, Blackfriars/Salvation Army to Clerkenwell) than anything involving public transport.

 

[Mikey C]

I was surprised that when the Victoria line was built, that the cross platform interchange was not done with the central line instead of the bakerloo**, as I assume most interchanges are between the central and victoria, being two of the principle lines on the system, where as the bakerloo is not.

**I would imagine its because the alignment of the central line platforms are not in an ideal direction, being East-West, where as the Bakerloo is North-South, in a similar direction to the Victoria

The Central is wrongly aligned. Plus the current cross platform interchange IS very useful, as it enables easy access to Victoria or Waterloo/Charing X going south and Kings Cross/Euston or Baker Street/Marylebone going north

 

[swt_passenger]

The Central is wrongly aligned. Plus the current cross platform interchange IS very useful, as it enables easy access to Victoria or Waterloo/Charing X going south and Kings Cross/Euston or Baker Street/Marylebone going north

I always thought it was intentionally designed that way for the Waterloo to Kings Cross benefits, ie to relieve the previously advertised Northern/Piccadilly line route.

(Although IIRC they never updated the overhead coloured lights signing recommended cross-London interchange routes.)

 

[A60stock]

If the victoria and central had cross platform interchange then I wonder if this would have been more useful

 

[miklcct]

As alluded to above, many who do or did commute to London find all sorts of methods and ways that turn out to be quicker (or only marginally slower but significantly less stressful), despite not being offered by whatever "journey planner" is being used.

Depending on how much quicker than Google you are, if you're loosing time on your public transport journey, Google maps suggests a 32 minute walk between Chancery Lane and Waterloo - experience tells me that's about 25 minutes at my pace. Similarly, if needing to circulate via Victoria, how about walking to Temple, then using the District and Circle? Or walking to Holborn, then using the Piccadilly and changing at Green Park?

In my experience, the best way was to find a method, hone it well, and stick to it. I can recall getting irritated over little things like a closed pedestrian crossing meaning I had a walk further, the gates to St Paul's churchyard being closed which meant I had to walk "the long way around", or, very apt for this time of year, the staging for the Lord Mayor's Show being de/constructed, likewise. However, all of those methods were faster for my journey (at that time, Blackfriars/Salvation Army to Clerkenwell) than anything involving public transport.

Unfortunately we haven't implemented "the level of crowding" into the stress calculation of our journey planner yet. The GTFS-RT specification provides a way to specify vehicle crowding, but not yet for station / platform crowding. Probably another proposal for me to write such that I can tune our journey planner to avoid these stations when necessary.

In short, there is simply not a good way to travel from Holborn / Farringdon to the SWR network apart from cycling it, which is not feasible for me due to the triangular nature for my journeys apart from paying a fortune to hire one, while travelling by public transport will guarantee me that the cap is hit with or without the Chancery Lane - Waterloo leg.

 

[SynthD]

If the victoria and central had cross platform interchange then I wonder if this would have been more useful

It would involve tight turns to reach that alignment, slower speeds, more screeching. Some passengers would not like the long walk to the Bakerloo platforms, it could interfere with their commute to Holborn.

 

[Turtle]

A lot of the Victoria line stations were built on the cheap and aren't really up to the job of carrying modern passenger numbers. I'm sure with an infinite money pot TfL would love to fix them, but other matters take priority.

Look how long it took to get Bank sorted, possibly the most important interchange on the system in peak commuter hours. The other stations will take an awful long time to get fixed, if ever.

Spot on. Financial constraints have always been the curse of the Underground. I worked near Oxford Circus during its 1960s modernisation and it felt like paradise when finished. 30 years plus later it feels cramped and oppressive having been unable to cope with the massive increase in footfall. In retrospect the platforms of the busiest central London stations should have been twice as wide, escalators doubled and street entrances and exits designed considerably wider.

 

[duncombec]

Unfortunately we haven't implemented "the level of crowding" into the stress calculation of our journey planner yet. The GTFS-RT specification provides a way to specify vehicle crowding, but not yet for station / platform crowding. Probably another proposal for me to write such that I can tune our journey planner to avoid these stations when necessary.

The what? Something something real time?

In any case, it seems... a little too niche - one person's ability to slide through crowds with reasonable ease is rather different to another's. Perhaps there could also be an option for "I like to stand (on the right) on the escalator" versus "I like to walk up/down on the left"? (or the Bank DLR stand on both sides, walk on neither option!)

In short, there is simply not a good way to travel from Holborn / Farringdon to the SWR network apart from cycling it, which is not feasible for me due to the triangular nature for my journeys apart from paying a fortune to hire one, while travelling by public transport will guarantee me that the cap is hit with or without the Chancery Lane - Waterloo leg.

A number of my suggestions involved... walking. I can't imagine there are many people who expect to step out of their office and there to be a convenient connection to wherever they want to go, taking minimal time. Certainly all of my colleagues understood that, and I expect most of yours do, too.

 

[35B]

Unfortunately we haven't implemented "the level of crowding" into the stress calculation of our journey planner yet. The GTFS-RT specification provides a way to specify vehicle crowding, but not yet for station / platform crowding. Probably another proposal for me to write such that I can tune our journey planner to avoid these stations when necessary.

In short, there is simply not a good way to travel from Holborn / Farringdon to the SWR network apart from cycling it, which is not feasible for me due to the triangular nature for my journeys apart from paying a fortune to hire one, while travelling by public transport will guarantee me that the cap is hit with or without the Chancery Lane - Waterloo leg.

Try using Thameslink to Blackfriars, then walking along the south bank.

 

[paul1609]

High Holborn to Waterloo Main Station is a 1.2 mile walk. Should we really be spending any public money on this at all?

 

[35B]

High Holborn to Waterloo Main Station is a 1.2 mile walk. Should we really be spending any public money on this at all?

No.

It's perfectly manageable - I have colleagues who commute through Waterloo to Holborn Circus and wouldn't think of using the Tube.

It highlights a wider issue with London geography - the number of people who know the Tube map, but not how things relate on the ground. A classic example was when my wife audited a client near Great Ormond St, and either walked from Charing Cross or caught the Piccadilly from Leicester Square. She considered, and explicitly rejected, the idea of using the Tube from Charing Cross to connect with the Piccadilly Line.

 

[dosxuk]

I'd just catch the bus - the 59 is direct and runs about every 10 minutes. Far easier than a trek across half of London.