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"Change at X for Y" on ticket - suggestion or instruction?

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najaB

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Pretty simple question: If a ticket has "Change at..." printed on it, does that override routes that would otherwise be valid?

The background is this ticket:

20201211_073325.jpg

When booking online, you can be routed to change at either Gateway or Haymarket depending on the train you get from Dundee, and the tickets from the airport machine don't have a routing at all.

Since it's an Anytime ticket I wasn't bound to a specific train, on the day I did get a train that stopped at Gateway but wanted to go to Haymarket to pop to the shops, when I got there the gateline attendant was reluctant to let me out saying that I "Should have changed at Gateway, it says so on the ticket". She let me out without too much fuss but I was wondering if she was right or not.
 
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oldman

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From​
DUNDEE
To​
EDB APT BUS/TRAM
Route​
VIA EGY TRAM​
 

alistairlees

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That's the "nice" text for VIA EDINBURGH PARK TRAM (route code 00644)

There is also route code 00643: VIA HAYMARKET BUS/TRAM / "Change at Haymarket for Bus or Tram"

There are also Edinburgh Gateway and Edinburgh (Waverley) examples.

I haven't had time to look into the data, but it perhaps explains why you had trouble at the gateline.
 

island

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Absent an itinerary showing otherwise, it seems to me that you were doubling-back between Edinburgh Gateway and Haymarket and the attendant was correct.

That's the "nice" text for VIA EDINBURGH PARK TRAM (route code 00644)
no, the OP’s ticket is route 01002
 

najaB

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Absent an itinerary showing otherwise, it seems to me that you were doubling-back between Edinburgh Gateway and Haymarket and the attendant was correct.
Is it still doubling back if you change from train to tram at Haymarket?
 

najaB

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Does the train from Dundee pass through Edinburgh Gateway on the way in?
Yes. But the tram stop and train station are co-located rather than being a single station (you have to pass through the barriers to get from one to the other).
 

island

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In the alternative, the journey via Haymarket is prohibited as it is more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route*, is not a mapped route, and is not a through train.

Had you had an itinerary from an approved website showing a change at Haymarket, I might have concluded differently.

*I do not have the rail distance readily to hand, but Google Maps measures the as-the-crow-flies distance from Edinburgh Gateway to Haymarket as 3.9 miles.
 

najaB

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Had you had an itinerary from an approved website showing a change at Haymarket, I might have concluded differently.
Those are generated quite easily - choose any departure from the north that doesn't stop at Gateway. If via Haymarket was prohibited then they could force a change at Kirkaldy or Inverkeithing but you can quite easily get a change at Haymarket. Plus, does the idea of "3 miles longer than the shortest route" even apply when one of the legs is bus/tram rather than train?
 

oldman

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I see brfares only gives via EGY (not HYM) for fares from Aberdeen. Is that what a ticket from Aberdeen would say?
 

najaB

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I see brfares only gives via EGY (not HYM) for fares from Aberdeen. Is that what a ticket from Aberdeen would say?
Interesting, given that very few (if any?) Aberdeen trains call at EGY. I wonder if they force a change at INK/KDY?

Edit: Found the answer. Can be a change at INK, DEE or...
Screenshot 2020-12-11 164850.jpg
 

_toommm_

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Interesting, given that very few (if any?) Aberdeen trains call at EGY. I wonder if they force a change at INK/KDY?

Edit: Found the answer. Can be a change at INK, DEE or...
View attachment 86974

Is that ticket a different price to the OP’s? There’s one route ‘VIA EGY TRAM’ and a more expensive one ‘VIA INK 747 BUS’:

From Aberdeen:
E542773D-A2E0-4AF6-A234-E539333B5547.jpeg

From Dundee:
7F4DA6A5-539E-441C-AC29-72484BE0FEA6.jpeg
 

JB_B

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In the alternative, the journey via Haymarket is prohibited as it is more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route*, is not a mapped route, and is not a through train.

Had you had an itinerary from an approved website showing a change at Haymarket, I might have concluded differently.

*I do not have the rail distance readily to hand, but Google Maps measures the as-the-crow-flies distance from Edinburgh Gateway to Haymarket as 3.9 miles.

Route 01002 requires journeys that pass through at least one one of :-

Edinburgh Park
Edinburgh Gateway; or
Haymarket

I think that means the doubleback is fine as you can split the route at Haymarket.

( The similar sounding route 00644 - VIA EDP TRAM - VIA EDINBURGH PARK TRAM would be different as that simply requires Edinburgh Park to be included. )
 

island

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I’m not aware of any part of the National Routeing Guide that supports your assertion that “you can split the route at Haymarket”. Could you point it out to me please?
 

najaB

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Something else that's worth considering - this ticket pre-dates Edinburgh Gateway existing and was only valid to change at Haymarket. It seems that it would have required a negative easement to be entered to remove that validity, no?
 

JB_B

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I’m not aware of any part of the National Routeing Guide that supports your assertion that “you can split the route at Haymarket”. Could you point it out to me please?

I should have made it clear that I was offering a suggestion as to why journey planners will offer the route via Haymarket for this ticket ( and if they do then of course the route is - de facto - permitted as long as you can provide an appropriately evidenced itinerary.)

See, e.g., the discussion in this thread - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/route-lm-xc-ticket-london-to-sheffield.193201/#post-4235816 - esp. posts #13-15.

As far as I can recall you're correct - there is nothing explicit regarding splitting the permitted routes check at mandatory via points (whether alternative points or all-points) in the public-facing version of routeing guide.
 

Watershed

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Something else that's worth considering - this ticket pre-dates Edinburgh Gateway existing and was only valid to change at Haymarket. It seems that it would have required a negative easement to be entered to remove that validity, no?
Tickets' validity can change purely due to the opening of a new station - regardless of the frequency of service to that station. For example, tickets from Birmingham to Worcester used to be valid via Ashchurch until Worcestershire Parkway opened. I am sure there are also examples viz. Warrington West and Sankey.

I think the bigger issues here are that:

a) the long-text version of the route code imparts a subtly different restriction than the electronic data and the short-text version,

b) it is ambiguous whether non-NR mileages should be included in shortest route calculations, and if so, what source should be used, and

c) it is ambiguous how permitted routes are calculated for non-NR destinations, particularly what Routeing Point such destinations should be deemed associated with.

These should all be academic points really, as journeys planners will readily route via Haymarket if that is the quickest route, and so barriers (or at least staff) should be accepting these tickets as valid for entry or exit there.
 

island

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I should have made it clear that I was offering a suggestion as to why journey planners will offer the route via Haymarket for this ticket ( and if they do then of course the route is - de facto - permitted as long as you can provide an appropriately evidenced itinerary.)

See, e.g., the discussion in this thread - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/route-lm-xc-ticket-london-to-sheffield.193201/#post-4235816 - esp. posts #13-15.

As far as I can recall you're correct - there is nothing explicit regarding splitting the permitted routes check at mandatory via points (whether alternative points or all-points) in the public-facing version of routeing guide.
In that case I agree.
 

bb21

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I can only offer insight into what may have been intended with this fare. Destination K563 fares are calculated as add-on fares to the rail component, at £4 for singles. This would appear to collate with the rail component to Edinburgh Gateway in the OP's case (same for the Aberdeen fare), routed 01002, not Haymarket, whereas travel from east of Edinburgh, eg. North Berwick, would be an add-on to the Waverley/Haymarket fare (Route 00642).

Whether Route 01002 was created after the opening of Edinburgh Gateway and after the creation of Route 00642 I cannot say, but the intention seems clear to me in this case.

Whether that legally has any implication on actual routeing I cannot say.
 
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