Change of train mid-route?

[phoenix1589]

I was waiting for the 2100 Bristol Temple Meads to Paddington this evening. The booked train, from Exeter was running about 8 late when a train came into the platform, empty, and announced it was the 2100 about 5 minutes early.

There was a garbled announcement about being a 'couple of minutes late, awaiting a driver' followed by another announcement saying about 5 late whilst the original inbound train arrived and driver/passengers transferred. The new train then left, about 8 late, with the original train headcode.

Is this common practice? I don't see why they would bring in a new unit only a few minutes before and transfer passengers/driver to it.

 

[yorkie]

Sounds like they needed to get the set to the depot for some reason. A set swap mid-route will be a tiny proportion of journeys, but it's not unheard of by any means.

 

[43066]

Is this common practice? I don't see why they would bring in a new unit only a few minutes before and transfer passengers/driver to it.

Not common, but certainly happens from time to time for example if the new set is needed in London the next morning, or the old set is needed in Exeter.

Sounds like they needed to get the set to the depot for some reason.

Or that!

 

[ValleyLines142]

Happens a hell of a lot in Transport for Wales territory too.

 

[phoenix1589]

Thanks. Even managed to catch up most of the delay, and across London to London Bridge in 24 minutes

 

[John R]

Is this common practice? I don't see why they would bring in a new unit only a few minutes before and transfer passengers/driver to it.

Not at all unusual from my experience, and there will be some reason for it, usually a problem with the previous set.

It’s usually announced at Temple Meads as “this is a continuation of the xxxx from X to Y” to make it clearer to the passengers what is happening.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

A common example I’ve seen with 800’s is that if too many Generator Units (GU’s) have failed then they’ll swap an inbound set with an outbound set. It happens a lot on LNER with the Aberdeen’s and Inverness’, normally at York or Edinburgh. Usually in these cases the set heading north is on something like 2 out of the 5 GU’s, or even more strangely is an 801. The latter is less common though.

 

[Trainguy34]

A common example I’ve seen with 800’s is that if too many Generator Units (GU’s) have failed then they’ll swap an inbound set with an outbound set. It happens a lot on LNER with the Aberdeen’s and Inverness’, normally at York or Edinburgh.

Probabky because it's quite challenging terrain towards Aberdeen & Inverness so they need all the GUs going but they wouldn't on other routes. Quite possible running with a GU failing happens often but they don't need all of them running on other services so they don't switch until they need to

 

[SamYeager]

I suppose the obvious question has to be why are so many GUs failing so frequently? The IETs have been in service more than long enough for teething problems to have been addressed.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Probabky because it's quite challenging terrain towards Aberdeen & Inverness so they need all the GUs going but they wouldn't on other routes. Quite possible running with a GU failing happens often but they don't need all of them running on other services so they don't switch until they need to

I believe they need at least 3 to be working for those two routes, especially for the Inverness. It happens several times in a week where at least 1 has been shut down.

The Aberdeen’s switch power mode while stationary at Haymarket, while the Inverness’ do it on the move in and around Dunblane.

 

[800301]

I suppose the obvious question has to be why are so many GUs failing so frequently? The IETs have been in service more than long enough for teething problems to have been addressed.

That’s a question for Hitachi although a GU may be isolated due to fault with something other than engine/gearbox, there are also times where they don’t kick in despite running and being ‘ready’

 

[fgwrich]

That’s a question for Hitachi although a GU may be isolated due to fault with something other than engine/gearbox, there are also times where they don’t kick in despite running and being ‘ready’

I do wonder if Hitachi had underestimated the amount of times the units would be running on the GUs, and tested to a much lower level. After all, they were largely ordered at a time when we were supposed to be continuing with rolling electrification. That and certain elements of how different the English summers can be - ranging from rapid temperature changes to blocked radiators by pollen / plant related matter etc*

*as the 180s have in the past often found out!

 

[Benjwri]

Not at all unusual from my experience, and there will be some reason for it, usually a problem with the previous set.

It’s usually announced at Temple Meads as “this is a continuation of the xxxx from X to Y” to make it clearer to the passengers what is happening.

Fairly unusual for an IET though, they’re normally swapped at Paddington, it’s the 166s/158s that normally get swapped at Bristol.

 

[Snow1964]

Had a similar thing with a voyager set on a Plymouth-Scotland working recently, announced after leaving Birmingham would need to change to a replacement unit at Derby, so XC do it as well.

The annoying thing was despite both sides of an adjacent island platform being empty all time we were there, instead of making it easy for customer with cross platform, they decided to use both ends of platform 1 and make everyone walk, and opted to put replacement unit in reverse formation, so those with reserved seats in rear coach had to walk virtually to other end of platform as their new seats were now at front.

Clearly if it could get from Devon to Derby, could probably have finished the circuit, but I'm guessing wanted to minimise empty run to Three Rivers and passenger convenience is deemed not important (are you no longer able to turn a train in Derby area ?)

 

[Benjwri]

opted to put replacement unit in reverse formation

That’s not a choice though, getting pathing to flip a train is hard enough, it just wouldn’t happen in the middle of the day, let alone the waste of time and fuel of reversing twice on a triangle junction.

 

[louis97]

Had a similar thing with a voyager set on a Plymouth-Scotland working recently, announced after leaving Birmingham would need to change to a replacement unit at Derby, so XC do it as well.

The annoying thing was despite both sides of an adjacent island platform being empty all time we were there, instead of making it easy for customer with cross platform, they decided to use both ends of platform 1 and make everyone walk, and opted to put replacement unit in reverse formation, so those with reserved seats in rear coach had to walk virtually to other end of platform as their new seats were now at front.

Clearly if it could get from Devon to Derby, could probably have finished the circuit, but I'm guessing wanted to minimise empty run to Three Rivers and passenger convenience is deemed not important (are you no longer able to turn a train in Derby area ?)

Using both ends of Platform 1 is fairly standard for XC. Cross platform isn't always possible because of how busy P3/4 can be, even if they were empty at the time you were there. Most XCs have more than the standard dwell time at Derby, so some time for the swap - a swap is better than terminating at Birmingham and turfing everyone on the train an hour later.

The set could perhaps have finished the circuit, but if it didn't end at Central Rivers that isn't any good. Also the fault could have occurred on the journey up from Devon.

 

[zwk500]

Had a similar thing with a voyager set on a Plymouth-Scotland working recently, announced after leaving Birmingham would need to change to a replacement unit at Derby, so XC do it as well.

The annoying thing was despite both sides of an adjacent island platform being empty all time we were there, instead of making it easy for customer with cross platform, they decided to use both ends of platform 1 and make everyone walk, and opted to put replacement unit in reverse formation, so those with reserved seats in rear coach had to walk virtually to other end of platform as their new seats were now at front.

The central platforms at Derby are used for reversing services, blocking them could have caused serious problems for timekeeping.

Clearly if it could get from Devon to Derby, could probably have finished the circuit, but I'm guessing wanted to minimise empty run to Three Rivers and passenger convenience is deemed not important (are you no longer able to turn a train in Derby area ?)

Where did the fault occur? If it was shortly before or after Birmingham then Derby is the first sensible opportunity to change the sets over. You can only turn a train in the derby area by using Trent Jns, if the problem was with only 1 cab they could have reversed the train in P3/4 and then sent it via the Erewash but obviously once it gets to Newcastle or Edinburgh they would then need to spin it again.

 

[Michael.Y]

Happens a hell of a lot in Transport for Wales territory too.

Once worked a 150 NWP-Holyhead which was then swapped for a 175 at Chester on the return journey. Was fun trying to get a trolley onto an already packed train at Chester which had been sitting there waiting for us for some time.

 

[L401CJF]

It's a daily thing at Transport for Wales! Often set swaps at Shrewsbury for example if they are short of 158s and it's a 150/153/175 on a Birmingham to Aberystwyth only 158s can continue from Shrewsbury down the cambrian due to the ERTMS system. So the 158 that's come from Aberystwyth will swop with the unit from Birmingham and head back to Aberystwyth, while the unit that's come from Birmingham will go back to Birmingham.

I've had units swapped at Chester before when they've been sent up in service just to get them in the depot for exams etc.

 

[JD2168]

I had a similar thing a few years ago when on a train from Bridlington through to Sheffield we were told to get off at Hull & change to another train. Changing from a Class 170 to a Class 150 the train was not pleasant for the run from Hull to Sheffield.

 

[chris_in_salop]

It's a daily thing at Transport for Wales! Often set swaps at Shrewsbury for example if they are short of 158s and it's a 150/153/175 on a Birmingham to Aberystwyth only 158s can continue from Shrewsbury down the cambrian due to the ERTMS system.

One Friday evening a couple of weeks ago a badly co-ordinated set swap meant that the Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth portion departed 15 minutes before the heavily delayed Birmingham-Shrewsbury portion arrived, leaving through passengers with a 90 minute wait for the next train.

I understand that holding connections may not always be possible, but not holding the continuation of the same service does seem unfair on passengers, although understandable from an operational point of view.

 

[Parallel]

It happens a fair amount at Bristol Temple Meads. If there’s a poorly 158 or 16x that’s come from Portsmouth which they don’t want to send through the Severn Tunnel, it sometimes gets swapped with whatever’s on the Weston-super-Mare to Severn Beach circuit. Whilst inconvenient for passengers transferring between trains, at least it prevents anything getting cancelled.

 

[pompeyfan]

From experience, Salisbury and Bournemouth are quite a regular place for unit swaps. Usually for defects but not always.

One thing I’ve also seen with SWR is they will terminate a late running train short at Salisbury (usually in the London direction), but restart it from Salisbury on time using replacement stock and crew (running as a 1Zxx). This seems particularly unfair since the covid timetable where the preceding stopper only runs as far as Basingstoke, which has a minimal connection at Basingstoke into a Waterloo service.

 

[william.martin]

Happens a hell of a lot in Transport for Wales territory too.

Too much, particularly with the 197's and 175's swapping at Chester.

I had a scenario where I was at Shrewsbury which has 2 bay platforms and 3 through platforms - normally a train comes in off the Cambrian - reverses and goes to Birmingham at the same time as one comes from Birmingham, reverses and goes up the Cambrian.

However in this situation the train came in from Birmingham turned around and went back to Birmingham and the Cambrian one turned around and headed back up there why would they do that?

 

[Railcar]

it happened to a Thameslink service from Brighton on Tuesday 16th May. The driver's cheery announcement running north from Haywards Heath told us that we would be swapping trains at Three Bridges. Our train pulled into Platfrom 3 and a new-ish 700 set was waiting on Platform 4 and we left a few minutes later.

 

[MP393]

Too much, particularly with the 197's and 175's swapping at Chester.

I had a scenario where I was at Shrewsbury which has 2 bay platforms and 3 through platforms - normally a train comes in off the Cambrian - reverses and goes to Birmingham at the same time as one comes from Birmingham, reverses and goes up the Cambrian.

However in this situation the train came in from Birmingham turned around and went back to Birmingham and the Cambrian one turned around and headed back up there why would they do that?

What type of train came in from Birmingham? It is possible it either wasn’t a Class 158, and therefore can not go down the Cambrian as only these have ERTMS fitted for the signalling system down there, or it was a 158 which had ERTMS Isolated, which again means it can not go down the Cambrian. There is always a reason for a set swap, they simply don’t happen for fun!

 

[william.martin]

What type of train came in from Birmingham? It is possible it either wasn’t a Class 158, and therefore can not go down the Cambrian as only these have ERTMS fitted for the signalling system down there, or it was a 158 which had ERTMS Isolated, which again means it can not go down the Cambrian. There is always a reason for a set swap, they simply don’t happen for fun!

They certainly don't happen for fun - it was a 158.

 

[Krokodil]

What type of train came in from Birmingham? It is possible it either wasn’t a Class 158, and therefore can not go down the Cambrian as only these have ERTMS fitted for the signalling system down there, or it was a 158 which had ERTMS Isolated, which again means it can not go down the Cambrian. There is always a reason for a set swap, they simply don’t happen for fun!

Alternatively one of the 158s needed to get to Machynlleth that night for attention and swapping them meant that it wasn't on a diagram booked to finish at Holyhead, Chester, or Pwllheli.

 

[william.martin]

What type of train came in from Birmingham? It is possible it either wasn’t a Class 158, and therefore can not go down the Cambrian as only these have ERTMS fitted for the signalling system down there, or it was a 158 which had ERTMS Isolated, which again means it can not go down the Cambrian. There is always a reason for a set swap, they simply don’t happen for fun!

They certainly don't happen for fun - it was a 158

 

[gabrielhj07]

A Manchester - Cardiff 150 was swapped for another 150 at Shrewsbury yesterday. Why would this be? Needless to say it was cosy!