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Changes in bus services to support the Elizabeth line

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freetoview33

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More details of the proposals.

Acton Services
218: North Acton - Hammersmith
New service, covering the part of Acton no longer served by the 440 and covering the daytime southern section of the 266 from Acton Town and Hammersmith.

266: Brent Cross - Hammersmith
Cut to run between Brent Cross and Acton Town (No longer serving Hammersmith).

N266: Brent Cross - Hammersmith
Night service unchanged, but renumbered to N266, running the full length of the route.

306: Acton Vale - Fulham
New service running the route of the 266 between Acton Vale and Hammersmith and the route of the 391 between Hammersmith and Fulham.

391: Richmond - Fulham
Cut to run between Richmond and Hammersmith (No longer serving Fulham).

440: Stonebridge Park station - Gunnersbury
Rerouted to serve Acton Main Line (Instead of West Acton) and a more direct route in Chiswick.

Ealing Services
95: Southall, Town Hall - Sheperds Bush Green
Extended from Southall, Town to serve Southall Waterside.

112: Ealing Broadway - Brent Cross
Proposed to be extend from Ealing Broadway to Osterley Tesco.

120: Hounslow - Northolt
Frequency increased to 7.5 mins.

427: Uxbridge - Acton Town
Cut to run between Uxbridge and Southall Broadway (Then a short extension to Merrick Road).

E1: Ealing Broadway - Greenford Broadway
Frequency reduced to every 10 mins.

E5: Perivale - Toplocks Estate
Minor reroute between Greenford and Southall.

E10: Ealing Broadway - Northolt
Larger single deckers and increase in frequency to every 10 mins.

H32: Southall - Hounslow
Extended from Southall Station to Hayes & Harlington Station (No longer serving Southall Town Hall.

Hayes & Harlington
140: Harrow Weald - Heathrow Airport
Cut to run between Harrow Weald and Hayes & Harlington Station, no longer serving Heathrow Airport.

N140: Harrow Weald - Heathrow Airport
As the current 140 night service, running the full route from Harrow Weald to Heathrow Airport.

X140: Harrow Bus Station - Heathrow Airport
A new express service between Harrow Bus Station and Heathrow Airport.

223: Harrow Station - Wembley Central
Cut to run between Northwick Park Hospital and Wembley Central no longer serving Harrow Station.

278: Ruislip Station - Heathrow Airport
New service following the 140 route from Heathrow Airport to Hayes. Then as H98 to Uxbridge then onwards to Ruislip Station, every 12 mins.

697/698: Ickenham - Kinghill Avenue/West Dryton
Reduction in services due to the new 278 route.
 

overthewater

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Does that mean the drivers and buses freed up from these changes can be used to improve other overcrowded routes?
 

freetoview33

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More details of the proposals.

129: North Greenwich - Greenwich Town centre
Extended to run between North Greenwich and Lewisham town centre, reduction in frequency from every 8 mins to every 12 mins.

161: North Greenwich - Chislehurst
Rerouted in Woolwich.

178: Woolwich - Lewisham
Double Deckers instead of Single Deckers.

180: Belvedere - Lewisham
Cut so it runs between Belvedere and Woolwich Road and extended to serve North Greenwich, the rest of the route to Lewisham would be covered by the extended 129.

244: Woolwich Common - Abbey Wood
Double Deckers instead of Single Deckers.

291: Woolwich Common - Woodlands Estate
Double Deckers instead of Single Deckers.

301: Bexleyheath - Woolwich town centre
New service via Abbeywood Station, single deckers, every 12 mins.

429: Woolwich Common - Erith
Rerouted to serve Woolwich Road instead of Abbey Road.

472: North Greenwich - Thamesmead town centre
Service rerouted to run North Greenwich - Crossway - Abbey Wood Station, Bentham Road would be served by 301, also frequency reduced from every 6 mins to every 8 mins.

B11: Bexleyheath - Thamesmead town centre
Cut the service so it runs between Bexleyheath and South Thamesmead, no longer serving Thamesmead town centre, as that section would be covered by the 301. Also a reduction in frequency from every 15 mins to every 20 mins.
 

freetoview33

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Custom House and the Royal Docks services
104: Stratford bus station - Manor Park station
Cut to run between Stratford Bus Station - Beckton Bus Station and would run every 8 mins up from every 10 mins.

241: Canning Town - Stratford City
Rerouted to run Custom House - Stratford City - East Wick.

300: East Ham - Canning Town
Rerouted to serve Custom House instead of Albert Dock.

304: Custom House - Manor Park station
Running the same route as 104 and would continue to run every 10 mins.

330: Canning Town station - Wanstead Park station
Extended from Canning Town Station to Silvertown, with a further proposal to extend to Custom House

474: Canning Town - Manor Park station
Rerouted to serve Victoria Dock Road instead of North Woolwich Road.

Harold Wood
174: Dagenham - Harold Wood station
Frequency increased from every 8 mins to every 6 mins.

256: Hornchurch - Noak Hill
Double Deckers instead of Single Deckers.

497: Hilldene Avenue - Harold Wood station
New service running via Tesco, running every 30 mins, single deckers.

Whitechapel
25: Ilford - Oxford Circus
Cut to run between Ilford and Holborn Circus, also cut from every 6 mins to every 8 mins.

115: Aldgate - East Ham
Two options for rerouting the service.
Option one is via Jubilee Street, Stepney Way, Sidney Street and Whitechapel Road in both directions.

Option two is the same as option one but running via Stepney Way westbound only and Ashfield Street eastbound.
 

Busaholic

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I can see there are some good proposals included in these 'consultations', with thought given to how travel patterns will change once Crossrail comes about, and how to help passengers to access stations on the new line by bus, BUT I find huge discrepancies in how the three separate areas have been treated by TfL. Many more medium-distance journeys will now be by rail in all these areas, and probably short-distance ones in both West and East London owing to the increase in frequencies, largely at the expense of bus routes, but the short-distance impact in SE London will be minimal with only two stations, Abbey Wood and Woolwich Arsenal, and the main effect being abstraction from South Eastern and DLR rail services. Yes, more passengers will probably now wish to commence a rail journey at Abbey Wood and, to a lesser extent, Woolwich, but the idea that the busy corridor between Woolwich, Charlton, Greenwich and Lewisham can be deprived of buses overall, and direct services axed, is a complete nonsense, and can't be justified by the Elizabeth Line's existence. Actually, although it's impossible to gauge the number of buses required in these SE London changes, my rough calculations are that the proposals are broadly neutral i.e. no increase in buses, or possibly one or two at best. with a few token conversions of single deck to double deck on some routes that, in practice, may already see deckers. On a 20 minute daytime frequency, like the 178, that is meaningless!

To finish, I'll just mention the 25 cutback to Holborn Circus from Oxford Circus - this would mean a passenger from Ilford, Stratford, Bow, Aldgate etc would need two changes of bus, there no longer being a direct bus link by any route to Oxford Circus from any of these places, not even Holborn Circus. The 8 only goes to Tottenham Court Road now - you'd need to get to Holborn Station to get a 55 or 98. Somebody in TfL's bus dept. has cocked up bigtime!
 

Antman

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I can see there are some good proposals included in these 'consultations', with thought given to how travel patterns will change once Crossrail comes about, and how to help passengers to access stations on the new line by bus, BUT I find huge discrepancies in how the three separate areas have been treated by TfL. Many more medium-distance journeys will now be by rail in all these areas, and probably short-distance ones in both West and East London owing to the increase in frequencies, largely at the expense of bus routes, but the short-distance impact in SE London will be minimal with only two stations, Abbey Wood and Woolwich Arsenal, and the main effect being abstraction from South Eastern and DLR rail services. Yes, more passengers will probably now wish to commence a rail journey at Abbey Wood and, to a lesser extent, Woolwich, but the idea that the busy corridor between Woolwich, Charlton, Greenwich and Lewisham can be deprived of buses overall, and direct services axed, is a complete nonsense, and can't be justified by the Elizabeth Line's existence. Actually, although it's impossible to gauge the number of buses required in these SE London changes, my rough calculations are that the proposals are broadly neutral i.e. no increase in buses, or possibly one or two at best. with a few token conversions of single deck to double deck on some routes that, in practice, may already see deckers. On a 20 minute daytime frequency, like the 178, that is meaningless!

To finish, I'll just mention the 25 cutback to Holborn Circus from Oxford Circus - this would mean a passenger from Ilford, Stratford, Bow, Aldgate etc would need two changes of bus, there no longer being a direct bus link by any route to Oxford Circus from any of these places, not even Holborn Circus. The 8 only goes to Tottenham Court Road now - you'd need to get to Holborn Station to get a 55 or 98. Somebody in TfL's bus dept. has cocked up bigtime!

They haven't cocked up at all, there is Crossrail and the Central Line, they're not going to provide a competing bus service as well.
 

freetoview33

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I must admit I don't really know London at all! But by the looks of it these new proposals will increase the number of buses and refocus them on serving Crossrail Stations and not competing against Crossrail. From the looks of it all trips are still possible admittedly with an additional change, but there are some new trips that are now possible. And if buses are more reliable then I guess it is good.

With any changes there are winners and loosers. But on the whole it seems like these will be broadly positive.
 

Busaholic

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They haven't cocked up at all, there is Crossrail and the Central Line, they're not going to provide a competing bus service as well.

The Central Line has been competing with the 25 bus route (London's busiest. by the way) for about a century, so you display your ignorance, I am afraid. The public were also told in connection with Central London bus changes that, although routes might shorten, only one change of bus would be required, and that in any case the Hopper fare would apply, disregarding the fact that the one hour time limit would have been breached in many cases. If the 25 proposal gets changed, then that's an admission they've cocked up. I suspect I know how they've cocked up too. There's also no mention of the very popular night service.
 

The 4th Rail

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Location
Watford
If the proposed 278 route goes ahead I feel the current bus station set up at Ruislip will struggle. Can be bad now when three 114's decide to show up.
 

matt_world2004

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They haven't cocked up at all, there is Crossrail and the Central Line, they're not going to provide a competing bus service as well.

Although tfl want you to generally avoid taking rail in zone 1 . the 25s curtailment is probably related to oxford street changes.
 

Antman

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The Central Line has been competing with the 25 bus route (London's busiest. by the way) for about a century, so you display your ignorance, I am afraid. The public were also told in connection with Central London bus changes that, although routes might shorten, only one change of bus would be required, and that in any case the Hopper fare would apply, disregarding the fact that the one hour time limit would have been breached in many cases. If the 25 proposal gets changed, then that's an admission they've cocked up. I suspect I know how they've cocked up too. There's also no mention of the very popular night service.

Well seeing as you've started to be abusive I should point out you are the one displaying ignorance I'm afraid. Crossrail effectively replaces the Oxford Circus section of the 25. In a deregulated environment buses compete with trains but that's not going to happen in London, it was inevitable that there would be some reductions on the parallel 25 route. If you don't agree with the changes fine, but nobody has cocked up as you so eloquently put it.
 
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Antman

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Although tfl want you to generally avoid taking rail in zone 1 . the 25s curtailment is probably related to oxford street changes.

TfL most certainly do want people using rail in zone 1 and the 25 change is not connected to Oxford Street changes, Crossrail will free up capacity on the Central Line.
 

NeilWatson

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20 Jan 2013
Messages
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TfL most certainly do want people using rail in zone 1 and the 25 change is not connected to Oxford Street changes, Crossrail will free up capacity on the Central Line.


https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/bus-routes-25-and-425/


These proposals form part of a wider package of changes to bus services in Central London. The proposals for routes 3, 6, 8, 15, 22, 23, 25, 46, 73, 137, 172, 242, 332, 390, 425, 452, C2, N2, N3, N8, N15 and N22 take account of Mayoral commitments about Oxford Street, in addition to current and future changes in the number of customers using each bus route, journey times, and where people are travelling to and from.

Demand on route 25 varies along the route. As one of London’s busiest routes we need to make sure everyone can get on a bus who needs to, but in a resource efficient way. Our proposed pattern of service would provide the current capacity that is still required between Ilford and Stratford. However it would reduce the frequencies between Stratford and Mile End where there is spare capacity. Between Mile End and Oxford Circus customers would see a slight increase in frequency as the service patterns are regulated across the route. This would provide a more cost effective way of matching the capacity to the demand and it would increase the frequencies west of Mile End.
 

Antman

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https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/bus-routes-25-and-425/


These proposals form part of a wider package of changes to bus services in Central London. The proposals for routes 3, 6, 8, 15, 22, 23, 25, 46, 73, 137, 172, 242, 332, 390, 425, 452, C2, N2, N3, N8, N15 and N22 take account of Mayoral commitments about Oxford Street, in addition to current and future changes in the number of customers using each bus route, journey times, and where people are travelling to and from.

Demand on route 25 varies along the route. As one of London’s busiest routes we need to make sure everyone can get on a bus who needs to, but in a resource efficient way. Our proposed pattern of service would provide the current capacity that is still required between Ilford and Stratford. However it would reduce the frequencies between Stratford and Mile End where there is spare capacity. Between Mile End and Oxford Circus customers would see a slight increase in frequency as the service patterns are regulated across the route. This would provide a more cost effective way of matching the capacity to the demand and it would increase the frequencies west of Mile End.

The 22 and C2 change has started today. The proposed withdrawl of the 25 west of Holborn Circus won't happen until Crossrail opens.
 

carlberry

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. In a deregulated environment buses compete with trains but that's not going to happen in London, it was inevitable that there would be some reductions on the parallel 25 route.

Yes, TfL knows best and bus passengers dont matter!
 

duncanp

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....The 22 and C2 change has started today.....

If these changes are in connection with the opening of the Elizabeth Line, then why are they being introduced now, given that the Elizabeth Line does not open to next year?

I think that part of the reason is that TfL are short of money given that Sadiq Khan made the rather foolish decision not to increase bus fares.

The "consultations" that TfL run are a sham exercise anyway, and some of the proposals are blatant lies.

Concerning a route that runs near where I live, the N73, TfL said that there would be no reduction in frequency at weekends.

So when the changes came in, the service was cut from every 12 minutes to every 15 minutes. The night tube helps for people living in Walthamstow, but it is no use for those in Stamford Hill and Stoke Newington.

Also the last bus is nearly 90 minutes earlier on all days of the week, at about 04:30, and no mention was made of this in the consultation. This has a serious impact on people who need to get to work before the tube starts.
 

sk688

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Cannot understand why the 140 was curtailed

The Harrow Weald to Heathrow link it provides, is pretty useful, and yes the route does get overcrowded, but HD run it well and I see no reason to change it, especially as it runs through so many places that Crossrail doesn't service

The X140 is a good idea, but I'd prefer extending it to Harrow Weald garage, just to keep the Harrow and Wealdstone station-Heathrow link

That's my most and local route covered, now on to the others

427- Would be regretted when Crossrail has an offday, and people crowd on to 207s and 607s

25- Shortening it a fair bit and breaking a few links, but Crossrail should fix that
 

Antman

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If these changes are in connection with the opening of the Elizabeth Line, then why are they being introduced now, given that the Elizabeth Line does not open to next year?

I think that part of the reason is that TfL are short of money given that Sadiq Khan made the rather foolish decision not to increase bus fares.

The "consultations" that TfL run are a sham exercise anyway, and some of the proposals are blatant lies.

Concerning a route that runs near where I live, the N73, TfL said that there would be no reduction in frequency at weekends.

So when the changes came in, the service was cut from every 12 minutes to every 15 minutes. The night tube helps for people living in Walthamstow, but it is no use for those in Stamford Hill and Stoke Newington.

Also the last bus is nearly 90 minutes earlier on all days of the week, at about 04:30, and no mention was made of this in the consultation. This has a serious impact on people who need to get to work before the tube starts.

These changes are not directly linked to Crossrail/Elizabeth Line (whatever people want to call it) but the reduction in bus usage in Central London, and I think uber have got a lot to answer for there;)!

Sadiq Khan made that pledge in his manifesto and was voted in so he has no real choice but to honour it.

I agree that consultations are a sham, just basically going through the motions.
 

96tommy

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It's a shame about the 25. I use it nearly daily from where I live in Whitechapel to Oxford Circus. As said it competes with the Central Line and is still very busy. I would have given it 6 months until after Crossrail opens to see what figures are like before making any change.
 

plcd1

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TfL most certainly do want people using rail in zone 1 and the 25 change is not connected to Oxford Street changes, Crossrail will free up capacity on the Central Line.

I disagree. TfL are doing several things at once - some are unstated but nonetheless they're happening.

On the 25 there are multiple issues. One is taking buses out of Oxford St. The second is removing buses from the junction of TCR / Charing Cross Rd and Oxford St because of the impending gyratory removal works by Camden Council. Hacking the 25 back to Holborn Circus removes a source of potential delay to the 25 service. Furthermore TfL intend to expand capacity at Holborn Station including building a new ticket hall in Proctor Street. The 25 could have run to Holborn and turned there but it's clear a decision has been taken to remove it from there well in advance of the works. Doing this when "nobody is looking" is tactically quite clever. Finally I also think that TfL, in an unstated way, are implementing their "core route" idea on the Bank to TCR corridor. They ripped out the 242, now they're ripping out the 25 and leaving the 8. It's a clever way of conducting a trial of something that's been floated politically but not yet publicly adopted by TfL. The 521 gives some extra M-F linkage but outside the peaks that's limited and no weekend service (for obvious reasons).

The problem I have with this being supposedly related to Crossrail is that Crossrail services a more northern alignment than the 25 does. Liverpool St and Moorgate are not Bank or St Pauls. Farringdon is not Holborn Circus nor Chancery Lane and Crossrail just whizzes under Holborn. Yes the Central Line will experience some relief when Crossrail eventually starts but the stations (other than TCR) are not accessible. Buses provide accessible transport for people and for those who don't want to trudge up and downs stairs and escalators and along connecting corridors to go 5-10 mins down the road.

In a city as complex and busy as London with a relatively poor density of tube stations (it isn't Paris!) in the centre and where some links are non existent by Tube then buses have to fill the gap. For the sake of shoving people on to the much more expensive tube and Crossrail and through a failure to keep the roads moving those of us who would use buses are being singled out for cuts. Wherever TfL are saving this money they are not really spending it anywhere else - no programme of better services in Outer London has emerged. The Crossrail bus service changes in outer London are a real mixed bag and many have been trimmed right back from published network development plans to make them as cost / resource neutral as possible. Even the West London plans have some pretty horrible cut backs within them.

Another 3 years of this nonsense and there'll be few buses in Central London and a chronically overloaded tube network. Heaven help us if there is a tube strike or some sort of catastrophic failure on part of the tube network that prevents services from running. There will be no buses to take up the slack and when people have waited for 3 hours to get on a bus without success they might just ask what the hell TfL have been doing.
 

Busaholic

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Well seeing as you've started to be abusive I should point out you are the one displaying ignorance I'm afraid. Crossrail effectively replaces the Oxford Circus section of the 25. In a deregulated environment buses compete with trains but that's not going to happen in London, it was inevitable that there would be some reductions on the parallel 25 route. If you don't agree with the changes fine, but nobody has cocked up as you so eloquently put it.

I'd like to unreservedly apologise to you for my intemperate response: it was uncalled for, and I did attempt to remedy it in a long (for me) post the following day, but the whole thing disappeared into the ether in-between writing it and posting it, and I was too tired to do it all over again. I will write again on this, though, as I can show some evidence of the disarray TfL were in over the 'Oxford Street' bus changes that occurred on Saturday. I'll only add at this stage that, if the 25 proposed change is not (in part) a cock-up then the percentage of it that is a deceit is even greater!
 

Antman

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I disagree. TfL are doing several things at once - some are unstated but nonetheless they're happening.

On the 25 there are multiple issues. One is taking buses out of Oxford St. The second is removing buses from the junction of TCR / Charing Cross Rd and Oxford St because of the impending gyratory removal works by Camden Council. Hacking the 25 back to Holborn Circus removes a source of potential delay to the 25 service. Furthermore TfL intend to expand capacity at Holborn Station including building a new ticket hall in Proctor Street. The 25 could have run to Holborn and turned there but it's clear a decision has been taken to remove it from there well in advance of the works. Doing this when "nobody is looking" is tactically quite clever. Finally I also think that TfL, in an unstated way, are implementing their "core route" idea on the Bank to TCR corridor. They ripped out the 242, now they're ripping out the 25 and leaving the 8. It's a clever way of conducting a trial of something that's been floated politically but not yet publicly adopted by TfL. The 521 gives some extra M-F linkage but outside the peaks that's limited and no weekend service (for obvious reasons).

The problem I have with this being supposedly related to Crossrail is that Crossrail services a more northern alignment than the 25 does. Liverpool St and Moorgate are not Bank or St Pauls. Farringdon is not Holborn Circus nor Chancery Lane and Crossrail just whizzes under Holborn. Yes the Central Line will experience some relief when Crossrail eventually starts but the stations (other than TCR) are not accessible. Buses provide accessible transport for people and for those who don't want to trudge up and downs stairs and escalators and along connecting corridors to go 5-10 mins down the road.

In a city as complex and busy as London with a relatively poor density of tube stations (it isn't Paris!) in the centre and where some links are non existent by Tube then buses have to fill the gap. For the sake of shoving people on to the much more expensive tube and Crossrail and through a failure to keep the roads moving those of us who would use buses are being singled out for cuts. Wherever TfL are saving this money they are not really spending it anywhere else - no programme of better services in Outer London has emerged. The Crossrail bus service changes in outer London are a real mixed bag and many have been trimmed right back from published network development plans to make them as cost / resource neutral as possible. Even the West London plans have some pretty horrible cut backs within them.

Another 3 years of this nonsense and there'll be few buses in Central London and a chronically overloaded tube network. Heaven help us if there is a tube strike or some sort of catastrophic failure on part of the tube network that prevents services from running. There will be no buses to take up the slack and when people have waited for 3 hours to get on a bus without success they might just ask what the hell TfL have been doing.

If there is a tube strike various other operators normally come to the rescue.

There has been a very noticeable decline in bus usage in Central London recently, I suspect there are a multitude of reasons why that is, but obviously TfL have to cut their cloth accordingly. The removal of the 25 from the west end is inevitable regardless of whether Oxford Street is pedestrianised although I agree that Holborn Station would have been better.
 
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duncanp

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Another possibility would be for the 25 to run to Holborn Station and then run down Kingsway to terminate at Aldwych.

Or, to avoid the work at Holborn Station, from Holborn Circus it could run to Aldwych via New Fetter Lane and Fleet Street.
 

Antman

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Another possibility would be for the 25 to run to Holborn Station and then run down Kingsway to terminate at Aldwych.

Or, to avoid the work at Holborn Station, from Holborn Circus it could run to Aldwych via New Fetter Lane and Fleet Street.

I think that is a good shout, Aldwych via Fetter Lane, more connections with other routes with duplicating Crossrail and Central Line any further.
 

Busaholic

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I disagree. TfL are doing several things at once - some are unstated but nonetheless they're happening.

On the 25 there are multiple issues. One is taking buses out of Oxford St. The second is removing buses from the junction of TCR / Charing Cross Rd and Oxford St because of the impending gyratory removal works by Camden Council. Hacking the 25 back to Holborn Circus removes a source of potential delay to the 25 service. Furthermore TfL intend to expand capacity at Holborn Station including building a new ticket hall in Proctor Street. The 25 could have run to Holborn and turned there but it's clear a decision has been taken to remove it from there well in advance of the works. Doing this when "nobody is looking" is tactically quite clever. Finally I also think that TfL, in an unstated way, are implementing their "core route" idea on the Bank to TCR corridor. They ripped out the 242, now they're ripping out the 25 and leaving the 8. It's a clever way of conducting a trial of something that's been floated politically but not yet publicly adopted by TfL. The 521 gives some extra M-F linkage but outside the peaks that's limited and no weekend service (for obvious reasons).

The problem I have with this being supposedly related to Crossrail is that Crossrail services a more northern alignment than the 25 does. Liverpool St and Moorgate are not Bank or St Pauls. Farringdon is not Holborn Circus nor Chancery Lane and Crossrail just whizzes under Holborn. Yes the Central Line will experience some relief when Crossrail eventually starts but the stations (other than TCR) are not accessible. Buses provide accessible transport for people and for those who don't want to trudge up and downs stairs and escalators and along connecting corridors to go 5-10 mins down the road.

In a city as complex and busy as London with a relatively poor density of tube stations (it isn't Paris!) in the centre and where some links are non existent by Tube then buses have to fill the gap. For the sake of shoving people on to the much more expensive tube and Crossrail and through a failure to keep the roads moving those of us who would use buses are being singled out for cuts. Wherever TfL are saving this money they are not really spending it anywhere else - no programme of better services in Outer London has emerged. The Crossrail bus service changes in outer London are a real mixed bag and many have been trimmed right back from published network development plans to make them as cost / resource neutral as possible. Even the West London plans have some pretty horrible cut backs within them.

Another 3 years of this nonsense and there'll be few buses in Central London and a chronically overloaded tube network. Heaven help us if there is a tube strike or some sort of catastrophic failure on part of the tube network that prevents services from running. There will be no buses to take up the slack and when people have waited for 3 hours to get on a bus without success they might just ask what the hell TfL have been doing.

My first objection to the 25 cutback is the deceitful way that TfL didn't include it in the Oxford Street so-called consultation exercise, but are now slipping it in when the vast majority of the Oxford Street proposals have been implemented. In those proposals, the 8 was to continue terminating at Tottenham Court Road rather than be re-extended to Oxford Circus: I was surprised at this, as I thought the 25 would be more likely to get cut back, but was reassured because it was explicitly stated that any route serving Oxford Circus not mentioned in the consultation exercise would not be changed, otherwise I'd certainly have objected to it. Now there is to be no bus directly connecting Oxford Circus to anywhere in a direct line from Holborn Station eastward, which is ridiculous. Holborn Viaduct can get very wet and windswept and is nowhere near an Underground station.

My second objection is, put quite simply, that many people who already have good access to those stations between Ilford and Stratford, with cross-platform interchange at Stratford to the Central Line, or not so far to walk at Liverpool Street, CHOOSE to continue using the 25 despite all the traffic problems and gradual cutbacks in frequency (quite drastic at times on the western section) and it doesn't take an economic genius to realise that a fare of £1.50 for an up to 11 mile journey could be a deciding factor for many. Maybe Crossrail's improved frequencies at Manor Park etc will persuade some to change to it in preference to the bus, but why not wait and see? After all, there are more trains between Ilford and Stratford too, but I see no plans to cut the frequencies on the 86.
 

plcd1

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My first objection to the 25 cutback is the deceitful way that TfL didn't include it in the Oxford Street so-called consultation exercise, but are now slipping it in when the vast majority of the Oxford Street proposals have been implemented. In those proposals, the 8 was to continue terminating at Tottenham Court Road rather than be re-extended to Oxford Circus: I was surprised at this, as I thought the 25 would be more likely to get cut back, but was reassured because it was explicitly stated that any route serving Oxford Circus not mentioned in the consultation exercise would not be changed, otherwise I'd certainly have objected to it. Now there is to be no bus directly connecting Oxford Circus to anywhere in a direct line from Holborn Station eastward, which is ridiculous. Holborn Viaduct can get very wet and windswept and is nowhere near an Underground station.

My second objection is, put quite simply, that many people who already have good access to those stations between Ilford and Stratford, with cross-platform interchange at Stratford to the Central Line, or not so far to walk at Liverpool Street, CHOOSE to continue using the 25 despite all the traffic problems and gradual cutbacks in frequency (quite drastic at times on the western section) and it doesn't take an economic genius to realise that a fare of £1.50 for an up to 11 mile journey could be a deciding factor for many. Maybe Crossrail's improved frequencies at Manor Park etc will persuade some to change to it in preference to the bus, but why not wait and see? After all, there are more trains between Ilford and Stratford too, but I see no plans to cut the frequencies on the 86.

Yes I can see your concerns about the 25. Hadn't quite put it together in that logical order but you're right there is some sneakiness going on. As I said above I think this is a "core route" concept being tested out on the QT.

The scale of change to the 25 is a bit stupid really. We should have had a restructuring by now with the Mile End shorts linked to the 425 but a more regular service to Oxford Circus. Now we get a proposal to lose the route west of Holborn Viaduct and to reduce the frequency. And we know it's a short contract to 2019 suggesting even more change then.

I think they have left the 86 alone to avoid a torrent of complaints from Newham, Redbridge, Barking and Dagenham and Havering Councils. The ploy here will be to wait to see how many vote with their feet and use Crossrail and then the axe falls. Knowing the likely opposition they will let the public (possibly) give them the evidence they need to fend off the local borough opposition.

TfL is utterly determined to shove people off buses and on to rail because they can screw more money out of them. It is as ruthless and cynical as that. They also need Crossrail to be a "success" very quickly for budgetary, reputational and lobbying reasons. I don't doubt people will use the new service but forcing people on to it by removing viable alternatives also helps TfL "over" achieve a few of its own targets and there's plenty of reasons for them to do that.

As I have said in another place a lot of these TfL proposals are "stepping stones" to achieving other objectives or planned route network changes. Buses may be sent to "daft" termini now but they're not daft in the context of being unable to afford planned extensions (e.g. 440 to Wembley) or to cater for redevelopment (218 into Old Oak Common area or 304 to North Greenwich via Silvertown Tunnel). I also think that financial problems forced TfL to scale back a lot of these changes at the last minute as Network Development papers make it clear other things were planned.

There is also "hospital access" paper (just published) where the Mayor has gone on record that several priority changes will be implemented in the near future. Another budget pressure that was not expected now.
 

Bletchleyite

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TfL is utterly determined to shove people off buses and on to rail because they can screw more money out of them. It is as ruthless and cynical as that.


Is it really? Or is it a sensible approach to using buses for what they are demonstrably good at in cities - feeding the rapid transit rail system - and stopping wasting road capacity on duplicating it?

On your other point, it is ludicrous to run bus routes just in case of a Tube strike. If there is a Tube strike, hire in buses from all over the country and run rail replacement.
 

Antman

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Is it really? Or is it a sensible approach to using buses for what they are demonstrably good at in cities - feeding the rapid transit rail system - and stopping wasting road capacity on duplicating it?

On your other point, it is ludicrous to run bus routes just in case of a Tube strike. If there is a Tube strike, hire in buses from all over the country and run rail replacement.

I very much agree, it was inevitable that the 25 would be withdrawn from Oxford Circus when Crossrail opened and I can't see any rational argument against that and whilst there needs to be a bit of slack in the network TfL can't possibly justify running excessive buses just in case there is a tube strike. There has been a considerable drop in Central London bus usage and it will undoubtedly drop further when Crossrail opens and TfL have to cut their cloth accordingly.
 

radamfi

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CHOOSE to continue using the 25 despite all the traffic problems and gradual cutbacks in frequency (quite drastic at times on the western section) and it doesn't take an economic genius to realise that a fare of £1.50 for an up to 11 mile journey could be a deciding factor for many.

Surely that's the anomaly here? How busy would the 25 be if there was no financial incentive to use it? We constantly criticise places outside London for not integrating bus/tram/rail fares. We are looking forward to Greater Manchester bus franchising as it gives an opportunity to integrate fares and cut wasteful duplication. The places that we normally hold up for public transport excellence like Zurich usually have integrated fares.
 
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