Changes to Preston area services from December 2022

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,318
Location
Knutsford
Does anyone know where I can find a list of proposed changes affecting Preston services at the next recast? I've seen that's there's threads on Manchester area changes, which include proposals that have since been dropped or postponed, some of which affect Preston services but I can't find a list of proposed changes for Preston.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Joined
24 Jul 2011
Messages
378
Location
Wigan
Apologies if you've already seen these, as they are based on the Manchester changes, however they also include timetables for local services at Preston, from December 2022. (click "The Routes" towards the bottom of the page.)
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,318
Location
Knutsford
Apologies if you've already seen these, as they are based on the Manchester changes, however they also include timetables for local services at Preston, from December 2022. (click "The Routes" towards the bottom of the page.)

Thanks. So it looks like the main change for Preston is an additional Bolton service every hour at the expense of a Wigan service but retaining 2 semi-fast services an hour to Manchester Piccadilly.
 

Bertie the bus

Established Member
Joined
15 Aug 2014
Messages
2,136
Laughingly described as route improvements. It appears as though the Preston - Man Vic is never returning and no more direct Preston - Stockport services.
 

Some guy

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2022
Messages
194
Location
Preston
Oh yeah, missed that Hazel Grove to Blackpool had become a second hourly Manchester Airport to Blackpool.
It’s bonkers even if they sent it hazel grove or the airport it’s still got to go through 13 and 14. It provided a direct service from Stockport and beyond. Manchester airport to preston is already 3tph it didn’t really need another
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
79,851
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
It’s bonkers even if they sent it hazel grove or the airport it’s still got to go through 13 and 14. It provided a direct service from Stockport and beyond. Manchester airport to preston is already 3tph it didn’t really need another

It's about pathing and what lines up with what. It's hardly that difficult to change to one of the many trains per hour from Piccadilly to Stockport if you need to go there.
 

Bertie the bus

Established Member
Joined
15 Aug 2014
Messages
2,136
It's about pathing and what lines up with what. It's hardly that difficult to change to one of the many trains per hour from Piccadilly to Stockport if you need to go there.
It doesn't matter whether it is difficult or not, though changing at Piccadilly can be quite difficult with a tight connection if arriving or departing from P13 or 14. What is important is Preston now has 4 tph to Manchester Airport and none to anywhere else in the Manchester area, including Victoria and Stockport.
 

507020

On Moderation
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,297
Location
Southport
Oh yeah, missed that Hazel Grove to Blackpool had become a second hourly Manchester Airport to Blackpool.
It’s absolutely stupid. It should be clockface half hourly Bolton - Manchester Airport with one started from Southport and the other started from Blackpool North and not quite clockface half hourly the other Blackpool going to Hazel Grove and the other Southport going somewhere from Victoria. It’s not that hard. The other services e.g. Victoria - Preston all stops, TPE fast, Barrow/Windermere, Clitheroe can be fitted in between.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
79,851
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
It doesn't matter whether it is difficult or not, though changing at Piccadilly can be quite difficult with a tight connection if arriving or departing from P13 or 14. What is important is Preston now has 4 tph to Manchester Airport and none to anywhere else in the Manchester area, including Victoria and Stockport.

You can't have direct trains from everywhere to everywhere.

There are thirteen trains per hour from Piccadilly to Stockport. Pick any one you like. No need for a "tight connection", choose the one that gives you the length of connections you want.

If you want Vic it's easy enough to change at Salford Crescent. Those trains were very poorly used.
 

507020

On Moderation
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,297
Location
Southport
changing at Piccadilly can be quite difficult with a tight connection if arriving or departing from P13 or 14. What is important is Preston now has 4 tph to Manchester Airport and none to anywhere else in the Manchester area, including Victoria and Stockport.
Especially if changing between P13/14 and the main shed. Even worse is that Preston now has this excessive service provision to the airport and none to other desired Manchester destinations, while other destinations e.g. Southport have lost the desired connection to the airport. I can’t see the next timetable lasting that long.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
79,851
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
So you keep saying and often come up with bizarre services with splits every couple of miles. Having a service to Stockport and Victoria isn't a service to everywhere.

The primary demand is to Manchester Oxford Road and Piccadilly. If you've got that (and there's plenty of that) the others are minority pursuits, and in this case served excellently by connections - thirteen per hour. You won't find that frequency in many places.
 

507020

On Moderation
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,297
Location
Southport
The primary demand is to Manchester Oxford Road and Piccadilly. If you've got that (and there's plenty of that) the others are minority pursuits, and in this case served excellently by connections - thirteen per hour. You won't find that frequency in many places.
Admittedly, it is very difficult to miss a train from Piccadilly to Stockport, but Blackpool North - Hazel Grove is an established connection which has run for many years, including when it was run with 180s.

The Dec 22 timetable also has no electric service using the wires to Hazel Grove, so I can’t see it being long before it returns.
 

Bertie the bus

Established Member
Joined
15 Aug 2014
Messages
2,136
If you want Vic it's easy enough to change at Salford Crescent. Those trains were very poorly used.
Changing at Salford Crescent can often mean a 15 or 20 minute wait and the services weren't very poorly used. They weren't as busy as the Piccadilly services but it isn't all about Manchester. Since they have been withdrawn Leyland - Preston has reduced from 3 tph to 2 and both in the Preston direction are at the same time so it is effectively 1 tph. And there are plenty of passengers who travel from Leyland - Preston, or there used to be until the reduction in services and now the car park is half empty.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
79,851
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The Dec 22 timetable also has no electric service using the wires to Hazel Grove, so I can’t see it being long before it returns.

Really? I thought the Blackpool-Hazel Grove was being replaced with a Piccadilly-Hazel Grove.

Or was the other one a Southport? If so won't that be a 769 and thus EMU on that bit?

Changing at Salford Crescent can often mean a 15 or 20 minute wait and the services weren't very poorly used.

Interesting that when this is raised regarding Southport and access to far more desirable and more important Castlefield the boot seems to be on the other foot?

They weren't as busy as the Piccadilly services but it isn't all about Manchester. Since they have been withdrawn Leyland - Preston has reduced from 3 tph to 2 and both in the Preston direction are at the same time so it is effectively 1 tph. And there are plenty of passengers who travel from Leyland - Preston, or there used to be until the reduction in services and now the car park is half empty.

Won't the new timetable have Leyland to Preston half hourly clockface, i.e. both of the Blackpool-Manchester Airport services?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
79,851
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
That’s when driving becomes preferable.

With four trains per hour to Oxford Road and Picc? Where are you going that a two-hourly stopping service to Victoria or a very slow drive with very expensive parking would be preferable than a quick walk or tram across Manchester? Most of Manchester city centre is accessible easily from the Castlefield stations, that's why Southport wants them.
 

Lampshade

Established Member
Joined
3 Sep 2009
Messages
3,663
Location
South London
With four trains per hour to Oxford Road and Picc? Where are you going that a two-hourly stopping service to Victoria or a very slow drive with very expensive parking would be preferable than a quick walk or tram across Manchester? Most of Manchester city centre is accessible easily from the Castlefield stations, that's why Southport wants them.
Then let Southport have them, changing at Salford Crescent is and has always been a royal PITA - as is the walk back to Piccadilly from anywhere around St Ann’s Square.
 

Agent_Squash

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2016
Messages
1,004
It's equally important to note that two of the services via Preston - the Cumbria and the Anglo-Scot - basically have to go to the Airport. Tourists to the Lake District and north of the border are ultimately worth more to the railway no matter how much the Southport user group tries to persuade Northern otherwise.

And then you have to consider what matters more - a half hourly clock face to/from Blackpool, or fragmenting the service with a Southport or wherever else. Having trains going to less places was always the aim of the recovery plan - as variation causes disruption!

Personally I think that the cleaning up is well over due - while it would be nice to have a service to Victoria from Preston, the potential reliability gains from not having it are worth the loss imo considering the strong tram network in Manchester.
 

507020

On Moderation
Joined
23 May 2021
Messages
1,297
Location
Southport
Really? I thought the Blackpool-Hazel Grove was being replaced with a Piccadilly-Hazel Grove.

Or was the other one a Southport? If so won't that be a 769 and thus EMU on that bit?
The Blackpool - Hazel Grove is replaced with another Piccadilly - Buxton Diesel which admittedly is good but stations within the metropolitan area have inherently higher demand to Manchester so there should always be a higher frequency to Hazel Grove than to Buxton.

The Southport is terminated short at Oxford Road as it was in 2020. The 769s may be more suitable for the Piccadilly - Buxton than the Southport - Oxford Road.
Then let Southport have them, changing at Salford Crescent is and has always been a royal PITA - as is the walk back to Piccadilly from anywhere around St Ann’s Square.
How do we convince the timetable planners that? I like St Ann’s Square.
And then you have to consider what matters more - a half hourly clock face to/from Blackpool, or fragmenting the service with a Southport or wherever else. Having trains going to less places was always the aim of the recovery plan - as variation causes disruption!
What matters more is as I have said clock face half hourly Bolton - Manchester Airport and the ability to serve both Southport and Blackpool. This then enables the desired Blackpool - Hazel Grove service to run.

Compromising local connectivity by reducing destinations may reduce disruption, but it will also reduce passengers…
 

Agent_Squash

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2016
Messages
1,004
What matters more is as I have said clock face half hourly Bolton - Manchester Airport and the ability to serve both Southport and Blackpool. This then enables the desired Blackpool - Hazel Grove service to run.

Compromising local connectivity by reducing destinations may reduce disruption, but it will also reduce passengers…

I suspect they wouldn’t have taken a decision like that if there was significant demand to justify a through service through the corridor.

It’s a nice to have - but again, it increases the risk of disruption to the whole corridor and that isn’t justified.

What the focus needs to be on is promoting good connections. The fact is most people will just do what the journey planner tells them.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,318
Location
Knutsford
It’s absolutely stupid. It should be clockface half hourly Bolton - Manchester Airport with one started from Southport and the other started from Blackpool North and not quite clockface half hourly the other Blackpool going to Hazel Grove and the other Southport going somewhere from Victoria. It’s not that hard. The other services e.g. Victoria - Preston all stops, TPE fast, Barrow/Windermere, Clitheroe can be fitted in between.

Southport to the airport has been discussed many times before. I'm not sure anyone has ever showed that there is sufficient demand for an a direct airport service from Southport, opposed to the former Southport to airport service existing for operational convenience and being used by some people.

What the focus needs to be on is promoting good connections.

Yep. Many of the local services out of Stockport are only hourly and Blackpool to Hazel Grove is a stopping service. While it's easier to change at Stockport, I don't think many people will choose that option if it's a much slower journey.

Personally I think that the cleaning up is well over due - while it would be nice to have a service to Victoria from Preston, the potential reliability gains from not having it are worth the loss imo considering the strong tram network in Manchester.

I haven't checked the times but would a stopping service from Preston to Victoria be faster than catching one of the fast airport services as far as Bolton and then picking up a Victoria service from there?

The Blackpool - Hazel Grove is replaced with another Piccadilly - Buxton Diesel which admittedly is good but stations within the metropolitan area have inherently higher demand to Manchester so there should always be a higher frequency to Hazel Grove than to Buxton.

Is that a change since the provisional timetables were published? They show 2tph to Buxton at peak times but 1tph to Buxton at off-peak times and additional Hazel Grove services operating throughout the day. It creates the strange situation where in the morning peak they'll be departures from Hazel Grove for Manchester at 08:10, 08:18 and 08:23. The 08:10 being all-stops to Stockport, the 08:18 calling only at Stockport and the 08:23 being all-stops including Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme.
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
79,851
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Southport to the airport has been discussed many times before. I'm not sure anyone has ever showed that there is sufficient demand for an a direct airport service from Southport, opposed to the former Southport to airport service existing for operational convenience and being used by some people.

Most Sandgrounders and West Lancastrians would choose Liverpool airport - cheaper flights and far less of a long-term issue with security queues. And they'd likely drive or take a taxi due to the typically antisocial times at which low cost carriers depart from and arrive back to their bases. I would agree the Airport is not an important destination for Southport. Castlefield is - most significantly Oxford Road which is a fair way from the tram* - but not the Airport.

It's also not, to be fair, a particularly important destination for the TPE Scottish services either. If you wanted to go to Edinburgh or Glasgow you'd not fly to Manchester. The Lakes is maybe a side-trade there, but many would just go for the direct Northern services to Windermere even if it involved a bit of waiting around.

I do see the point about Stockport, but with such a frequent connecting service I think it's far less of an issue than Southport-Castlefield. As I've said I wouldn't object to half hourly to Vic if the connections were good at Salford Crescent/Bolton (ideally the former). I don't however trust that they will be.

* I think I'd withdraw my objections to "all Southports to Vic" if the tram operated down Oxford Road to the uni, as it should. But that's for another thread.
 

Some guy

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2022
Messages
194
Location
Preston
Won't the new timetable have Leyland to Preston half hourly clockface, i.e. both of the Blackpool-Manchester Airport services?
Yeah it will be at 20 and 50 minutes past the same as it currently is now except the 50 minutes past is express to from buckshaw preston which is going to be changed in December
 

175001

Member
Joined
3 Feb 2007
Messages
1,152
Location
Between Heaven and Hell
As pointed out the North West - South East connection through Greater Manchester has been historical.

Of course changing trains at Piccadilly isn't the end of the world, but it does disconnect a long standing link.

I work the whole route from Blackpool to Hazel Grove and many use it to get from Bolton to Stockport, with the Alderley Edge service supplementing it.

It'll be a loss unfortunately but that's life for timetable resilience.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
17,097
Location
Mold, Clwyd
What happens when Bolton-Wigan and Victoria/Piccadilly-Stalybridge are wired?
Unlikely to be Dec 22, so those changes will have to follow the recast.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
79,851
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
What happens when Bolton-Wigan and Victoria/Piccadilly-Stalybridge are wired?
Unlikely to be Dec 22, so those changes will have to follow the recast.

I suspect not an awful lot unless the Southport debate was to be had again. 769s on electric slightly more, basically.

Edit: the other Southport tweak (i.e. moving both services to half hourly clockface to Vic via Atherton so most of it is diesel only) would require the Kirkby/Headbolt Lane to become a shuttle or be taken over by Merseyrail, or Atherton to be upped from 2 to 4tph which I doubt could be pathed, or a rather uneven 15-30 minute gap on the Athertons.
 
Last edited:

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
17,097
Location
Mold, Clwyd
I suspect not an awful lot unless the Southport debate was to be had again. 769s on electric slightly more, basically.
Plus more TPE bimodes on electric through the area.
Stalybridge was the terminus for the Chat Moss stopper, once upon a time, but they don't even serve Victoria these days, except in the peak.
 

Top