Changes to Preston area services from December 2022

[Greybeard33]

Wasn't that non-stop service only introduced in 2013/14 time when TPE changed from running via Bolton to going via Wigan, previous to that the east facing curve at Lowton was only limited served?

I suspect even with that non-stop service, most Wigan commuters will have used the slower stopping service via Hindley as there was a better chance of getting a seat (or even being able to board)

Yes, but eight years is plenty long enough for people to have changed their place of work or residence on the assumption the service was here to stay.

The journey to Oxford Road from Wallgate via Bolton takes nearly ten minutes longer than from North Western via Golborne.

 

[Starmill]

It's going to be a big blow that the fast Wigan services from Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Road are lost certainly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The journey to Oxford Road from Wallgate via Bolton takes nearly ten minutes longer than from North Western via Golborne.

Ten minutes is hardly a killer (I'm actually surprised that's all it is). And it would be one single peak train, which means it's only useful if that precise time suited.

I get the Southport debate, but this is not a big loss.

It's going to be a big blow that the fast Wigan services from Manchester Piccadilly and Oxford Road are lost certainly.

Is it really? Ten minutes extra, and in my observation they weren't that busy for journeys involving Wigan.

The loss of Piccadilly (i.e. the Southport terminating at Oxford Road) arguably is...but then that's a case to find a way to run that through to Picc.

 

[Greybeard33]

Ten minutes is hardly a killer (I'm actually surprised that's all it is). And it would be one single peak train, which means it's only useful if that precise time suited.

I get the Southport debate, but this is not a big loss.



Is it really? Ten minutes extra, and in my observation they weren't that busy for journeys involving Wigan.

The loss of Piccadilly (i.e. the Southport terminating at Oxford Road) arguably is...but then that's a case to find a way to run that through to Picc.

Well I'll bet the Sandgrounders will grumble about the additional Wiganers grabbing the seats on "their" train home from Oxford Road!

 

[Agent_Squash]

With the Wigan fasts, arguably the services that do/have previously provided are the wrong ones.

It is the right decision to move the Cumbria services via Bolton. Admittedly, the pathing outside of Manchester is a bit naff (it no longer connects with the fast Euston) but equally turning a regional express into a commuter isn’t the right approach. Plus, it has the handy benefit of saving everyone north of Lancaster/west of Oxenholme at least 10 minutes!

The 195s were very busy at Wigan, though. It’s a shame a case can’t be made for 4tph from Blackpool (2tph via Bolton, 2tph via Wigan) which would be a more suitable service to provide the offering.

 

[Starmill]

It is the right decision to move the Cumbria services via Bolton. Admittedly, the pathing outside of Manchester is a bit naff (it no longer connects with the fast Euston) but equally turning a regional express into a commuter isn’t the right approach.

The service will carry far more commuters from Bolton and Chorley than it does currently from Wigan.

 

[Agent_Squash]

The service will carry far more commuters from Bolton and Chorley than it does currently from Wigan.

But equally the service is expected to be becoming 6 cars so I suspect it won’t be as busy as now still

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the Wigan fasts, arguably the services that do/have previously provided are the wrong ones.

It is the right decision to move the Cumbria services via Bolton. Admittedly, the pathing outside of Manchester is a bit naff (it no longer connects with the fast Euston) but equally turning a regional express into a commuter isn’t the right approach. Plus, it has the handy benefit of saving everyone north of Lancaster/west of Oxenholme at least 10 minutes!

Judging by what I saw people doing off Barrow services I used that isn't "a bit naff" but significant. On the other hand I suppose people wanting Euston can change at Manchester instead, but it is a lot slower to do that.

 

[Some guy]

But equally the service is expected to be becoming 6 cars so I suspect it won’t be as busy as now still

It’s not going to be 6 cars it would stay the same just 3 car 195s on almost a 2 and a half hour journey

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s not going to be 6 cars it would stay the same just 3 car 195s on almost a 2 and a half hour journey

Platforms are being specifically extended to allow it to be longer than 3-car.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Judging by what I saw people doing off Barrow services I used that isn't "a bit naff" but significant. On the other hand I suppose people wanting Euston can change at Manchester instead, but it is a lot slower to do that.

Should clarify - it’s the connection off the xx30 from Euston - so most likely it would just be a wait!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Should clarify - it’s the connection off the xx30 from Euston - so most likely it would just be a wait!

Is the railway utterly incapable of joined-up thinking? This sort of thing makes me despair.

 

[Greybeard33]

Is the railway utterly incapable of joined-up thinking? This sort of thing makes me despair.

Is there not a WCML recast in December? See

December 2022 Timetable Changes

As per the title, the changes that are planned for the December 2022 timetable change. The big one should be the WCML rewrite, assuming that it is still going ahead. Feel free to add and update the thread.

www.railforums.co.uk

Do we know for sure that the Euston - Glasgow will not overtake the Northern Cumbria service at either Preston or Lancaster? The draft Northern timetable is only for Manchester to Preston, not beyond.

 

[Some guy]

Is there not a WCML recast in December? See

December 2022 Timetable Changes

As per the title, the changes that are planned for the December 2022 timetable change. The big one should be the WCML rewrite, assuming that it is still going ahead. Feel free to add and update the thread.

www.railforums.co.uk

Do we know for sure that the Euston - Glasgow will not overtake the Northern Cumbria service at either Preston or Lancaster? The draft Northern timetable is only for Manchester to Preston, not beyond.

It would most likely stay the same. It will be a 45 minutes past departure due to the xx:41 Avanti service being a lot faster so passengers should still easily make the Cumbria trains

 

[The Planner]

The fast Glasgow leaves Preston at xx.41 in Dec 22.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The fast Glasgow leaves Preston at xx.41 in Dec 22.

Arrives at xx40 I guess? So if the Barrow/Windermere is xx45, that's a miss and so a lengthening of theoretical* journeys by an hour. Nice one, railway. Do you even think?

* I know people on here will know that a 5 minute connection will be achievable in most cases, but most will go on what the planner says, and I'm pretty sure Preston is more than 5 - Lancaster too?

 

[The Planner]

Arrives at xx40 I guess? So if the Barrow/Windermere is xx45, that's a miss and so a lengthening of theoretical* journeys by an hour. Nice one, railway. Do you even think?

* I know people on here will know that a 5 minute connection will be achievable in most cases, but most will go on what the planner says, and I'm pretty sure Preston is more than 5 - Lancaster too?

Preston is 8. Lancaster 6.
Preston is a 3 minute dwell so depending on how the public timetable shows it, then they will arrive xx.38 or xx.39

 

[Watershed]

Arrives at xx40 I guess? So if the Barrow/Windermere is xx45, that's a miss and so a lengthening of theoretical* journeys by an hour. Nice one, railway. Do you even think?

* I know people on here will know that a 5 minute connection will be achievable in most cases, but most will go on what the planner says, and I'm pretty sure Preston is more than 5 - Lancaster too?

In most hours the northbound Barrow/Windermere has a ~10 minute dwell at Preston, during which it is overtaken by the fast xx30 off Euston. So whilst there won't always be connection at Preston in every hour, there will usually be at Lancaster - and it's same platform to boot.

In the southbound direction it's not as good, with the Barrow/Winderemere being roughly 10 minutes behind the fast London-bound service. Unfortunately that's the nature of how these things fall; it can't all be symmetrical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Preston is 8. Lancaster 6.

Interesting. So is 125 vs. 110 enough to gain the Pendolino an hour over the 195, and so make that 5 into 6 by Lancaster? I hope so, this is very bad otherwise and will cost the railway usage when people are told they have to sit around for an hour or make a considerably longer journey via Manchester.

In the southbound direction it's not as good, with the Barrow/Winderemere being roughly 10 minutes behind the fast London-bound service. Unfortunately that's the nature of how these things fall; it can't all be symmetrical.

Well, I think there's plenty of evidence in certain other European countries that it actually can if you consider such things important. My observation of using Barrows is that the main use cases are local journeys to Lancaster and connections to London - a 50 minute gap for the latter is very, very poor. Usage to Manchester/Airport is growing, but largely there's a turnover of passengers between the two of Lancaster and Preston - effectively it's a Barrow-Lancaster (for connections and local journeys) and a Preston-Manchester, with it fairly quiet (but less than it was) between the two.

You can't make everything connect, but you can audit what connections people are making and prioritise those. This has failed big-time here.

At least there's a nice new pub on the platform at Lancaster, though unfortunately the seating makes Fainsa Sophias feel good!

 

[The Planner]

Interesting. So is 125 vs. 110 enough to gain the Pendolino an hour over the 195, and so make that 5 into 6 by Lancaster? I hope so, this is very bad otherwise and will cost the railway usage when people are told they have to sit around for an hour or make a considerably longer journey via Manchester.



Well, I think there's plenty of evidence in certain other European countries that it actually can if you consider such things important. My observation of using Barrows is that the main use cases are local journeys to Lancaster and connections to London - a 50 minute gap for the latter is very, very poor. Usage to Manchester/Airport is growing, but largely there's a turnover of passengers between the two of Lancaster and Preston - effectively it's a Barrow-Lancaster (for connections and local journeys) and a Preston-Manchester, with it fairly quiet (but less than it was) between the two.

You can't make everything connect, but you can audit what connections people are making and prioritise those. This has failed big-time here.

At least there's a nice new pub on the platform at Lancaster, though unfortunately the seating makes Fainsa Sophias feel good!

Pendo Preston to Lancaster is 13½ minutes, 195s 16½ I think.

 

[whale]

Airport taxis are very expensive, especially if you're travelling solo. However, if you're able to fill one the cost might be comparable to the train. The good thing about the Preston to Manchester Airport timetable is it includes very early and late direct trains, meaning if you have a 7am flight departure you can still catch the train. That doesn't apply for some other routes to the airport.

Unfortunately December’s ‘first train of the day’ from Preston is almost an hour and a half later than it currently is, from what I can see at least. At the moment Preston has an 0357 express departure for the airport, but the first train on the new timetable isn’t until 0524. A huge mistake to remove that service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately December’s ‘first train of the day’ from Preston is almost an hour and a half later than it currently is, from what I can see at least. At the moment Preston has an 0357 express departure for the airport, but the first train on the new timetable isn’t until 0524. A huge mistake to remove that service.

How well-used is it? It was cancelled this morning...

 

[Llandudno]

How well-used is it? It was cancelled this morning...

Indeed, if I had an early morning flight there is no way I would risk catching the first train of the day to the airport!

Mind you, I have never dared risking using a train to the airport to catch a plane at any time of day, in case of a lack of ‘resource availability’!