Changes to the Oyster card deposit in London

[MikeWh]

https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/2019/12/change-to-oyster-deposit/

News has leaked out that TfL are to change the Oyster card deposit at some point in the new year. The date hasn’t been agreed yet, but it is NOT linked to the new fares.

When this change takes place the £5 refundable deposit will be replaced with a £5 fee. This is to encourage use of contactless payments for short or infrequent visits to London. The good news is that after a year the fee will be added to the PAYG balance making the card effectively free. This recognises that people who use their Oyster cards to hold season tickets or discounts and keep the same card are not adding to the burden of providing new cards.

A Transport for London spokesperson said:

In early 2020, we propose to replace the £5 refundable Oyster card deposit with a £5 fee. This will only affect cards issued after this time and will help reduce the number of cards that are returned after a few days or weeks. Customers who still use the card after a year will receive £5 pay as you go credit, essentially making their card free. If customers wish to avoid the charge, they can alternatively use pay as you go with a contactless card or mobile device instead. More information will be provided to customers when the timescales for these changes have been agreed.

I think this is a good change. I’d like to see the refund to PAYG extended to existing cards, although the logistics of that may be a bit of a challenge. Of course once the new system has come in you can always swap your old card for a new one and get a refund of the old deposit. I’d also like to see the differentiation between normal and visitor cards ended with this change. There are times when visitors could make use of a travelcard (which can’t be put on an existing visitor card) and it would simplify the offering. They could still produce cards with fancy designs for visitors who would like a keepsake.

 

[30907]

For Railcard holders switching to contactless is a disadvantage. However, I imagine the number of railcard holders who return an Oyster within a year is small.

 

[furlong]

This might also finally encourage those of us still using early first generation cards that don't have a deposit to update them.

 

[theironroad]

For Railcard holders switching to contactless is a disadvantage. However, I imagine the number of railcard holders who return an Oyster within a year is small.

You'd have thought that by now that tfl or whoever actually run oyster would have a solution to allow railcards to be added to contactless cards. Surely it must just be the unique number of the oyster card that the railcard is linked to, so what's the difference between that and a 16 digit unique contactless card?

I initially had an oyster, but moved to contactless and returned my oyster cards until I got a railcard and then had to get a new oyster......

 

[gray1404]

So it sounds like once the £5 "fee" is introduced, I would be best refunding my existing card with a £5 deposit and getting a new card with a £5 fee. Then after one year I'll have the £5 in credit and thus a free card rather then continually using a card with a £5 deposit on it that I never see the benefit of.

I am a railcard holder so don't want to switch to contactless.

 

[TrafficEng]

This might also finally encourage those of us still using early first generation cards that don't have a deposit to update them.

I've just seen this thread coincidentally after calling TfL yesterday on this very subject, having logged on to check my balance and getting an alert message.

The balance on the old card plus £3 deposit will be refunded to my bank account, and a new 'free' replacement card in the post. Apart from the time holding before speaking to someone it was a fairly painless process.

I did it this way as I don't know when I'll next be making an Oyster journey to be able to collect any transferred credit on a different card (I always use paper tickets now). The need to make a journey is a real downside to the system, otherwise more customer interactions could be online.

 

[furlong]

Seems they've changed things since I last checked, and they'll now post out a latest generation card to replace a first generation one without asking for a deposit.

 

[TrafficEng]

Seems they've changed things since I last checked, and they'll now post out a latest generation card to replace a first generation one without asking for a deposit.

The website suggests you have to pay, but the person on the phone said they could do it for free. I didn't click through on the online application to see whether the charge was confirmed though.

I guess they figure if you've had a 1st generation card for 9+ years and are going to the trouble of upgrading it, then you are likely to be keeping it for at least 12 months more and so would qualify for a freebie when the new arrangement comes in anyway.

 

[gray1404]

Do we have a date for when this new change is going to come in?

 

[smsm1]

The problem is contactless devices like Android and Apple Pay have different card numbers presented at the point of use, but in the back end they are linked together to show you on your online account, but still kept separate, as you can't change device during your day or journey. Or you can switch device, but you'll risk no capping, or maximum fares.

 

[Mag_seven]

Do we have a date for when this new change is going to come in?

Read the quote given by @MikeWh in the opening post

News has leaked out that TfL are to change the Oyster card deposit at some point in the new year. The date hasn’t been agreed yet, but it is NOT linked to the new fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TfL must regret not putting expiry dates on Oyster after which if not used they "time out" and the balance and deposit become non-refundable. They have a huge amount of open-ended liabilities, no business ever wants that (which is why gift vouchers only last 12 months)...

 

[swt_passenger]

Seems they've changed things since I last checked, and they'll now post out a latest generation card to replace a first generation one without asking for a deposit.

My deposit was refunded when I used the online exchange procedure a few weeks after it started, hasn’t it always worked like that?

 

[paddington]

I guess they are fed up with all the people buying oysters to get credit card points or cashbacks then refunding them into cash.

If they took the cards back and reused them instead of deactivating them and creating plastic waste, costs might be reduced.

 

[tom73]

Not sure why people seem to believe that TfL can do anything at all in respect of Railcard discounts on Contactless cards. Contactless cards are nothing to do with TFL but remain the property of the issuing bank

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure why people seem to believe that TfL can do anything at all in respect of Railcard discounts on Contactless cards. Contactless cards are nothing to do with TFL but remain the property of the issuing bank

Because you don't need to write anything to the card to do it, you can do it in the back end by associating the Railcard to the online account. It's not possible with Apple/Google Pay because of the generated card numbers these use, but it is technically possible with an actual card.

 

[sprunt]

TfL must regret not putting expiry dates on Oyster after which if not used they "time out" and the balance and deposit become non-refundable. They have a huge amount of open-ended liabilities, no business ever wants that (which is why gift vouchers only last 12 months)...

They should really be keeping PAYG balances in segregated client money accounts - not legally perhaps, but that's effectively what it is.

 

[furlong]

My deposit was refunded when I used the online exchange procedure a few weeks after it started, hasn’t it always worked like that?

So are you saying they are already issuing new cards without deposits on them, even when the cards being replaced did have a deposit? (Many original Oyster cards were issued without the need to pay any deposit.)

 

[swt_passenger]

So are you saying they are already issuing new cards without deposits on them, even when the cards being replaced did have a deposit? (Many original Oyster cards were issued without the need to pay any deposit.)

Yes, but not just recently - I had to search the forum to remind me, turns out it was well over two years ago:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/replacing-1st-generation-oyster-card.150577/#post-3092329
Seems I misremembered. I phoned, they posted a new card to me, then I did the transfer on line...

 

[furlong]

So the difference is that that thread said it had to be done by telephone to avoid paying a deposit, but it can now be done online.

 

[gray1404]

So if I go online and report my existing Oyster card as damaged, they will
1. Refund any remaining credit
2. Refund my £5 deposit
3. Send me a new card?

 

[Nick66]

So if I go online and report my existing Oyster card as damaged, they will
1. Refund any remaining credit
2. Refund my £5 deposit
3. Send me a new card?

When I replaced mine they didn’t refund the deposit, they just transferred it to the new card. That was about 18 months ago. I am thinking of changing again when my travelcard expires to get back the credit I had to put on to get through the barrier at Gatwick but will never spend. Interested to see what happens to the deposit then.

 

[TrafficEng]

So if I go online and report my existing Oyster card as damaged, they will
1. Refund any remaining credit
2. Refund my £5 deposit
3. Send me a new card?

As far as I know replacements due to damage still require a £5 deposit to be held on the replacement card.

The exception appears to be for the replacement of 1st generation cards.

If you have a damaged 1st gen card then it might be best not to mention the damage and just ask for a replacement due to the 1st gen issues.

 

[infobleep]

As far as I know replacements due to damage still require a £5 deposit to be held on the replacement card.

The exception appears to be for the replacement of 1st generation cards.

If you have a damaged 1st gen card then it might be best not to mention the damage and just ask for a replacement due to the 1st gen issues.

But surely that goes against the idea of it being a fee?

I have a card but it may not be first generation.

 

[TrafficEng]

But surely that goes against the idea of it being a fee?

I have a card but it may not be first generation.

My recollection is the deposit was introduced to discourage people from getting a card and throwing it away after a few uses, given that the pricing differential between Oyster and paper tickets meant that you'd be mad not to use an Oyster card - even for a one-off journey - if there was no cash value attached to the card. By making an exhausted Oyster card have a residual value (a refundable cash deposit) it encouraged people to keep them, or to return them for a refund.

So it wasn't intended to be a fee, just an incentive to keep and reuse cards. Transferring the deposit from an old damaged card onto a new one simply kept the status quo.

TfL's website has instructions on working out if your card is 1st generation, or if you have an online account it should be flagged as such.

 

[infobleep]

My recollection is the deposit was introduced to discourage people from getting a card and throwing it away after a few uses, given that the pricing differential between Oyster and paper tickets meant that you'd be mad not to use an Oyster card - even for a one-off journey - if there was no cash value attached to the card. By making an exhausted Oyster card have a residual value (a refundable cash deposit) it encouraged people to keep them, or to return them for a refund.

So it wasn't intended to be a fee, just an incentive to keep and reuse cards. Transferring the deposit from an old damaged card onto a new one simply kept the status quo.

TfL's website has instructions on working out if your card is 1st generation, or if you have an online account it should be flagged as such.

It's not first generation as I do have an account and it's not flagged up.

 

[Cdd89]

My recollection is the deposit was introduced to discourage people from getting a card and throwing it away after a few uses

I don’t think this is the main reason. The actual issue is that if Oyster cards had no deposit requirement, individuals could buy Oyster Cards loaded with just the minimum fare to enter at their starting station, and travel significant distances, abandoning the Oyster card after touching out at the end of the journey with a negative balance. The deposit removes that possibility, hence deposit + minimum fare = approximately maximum fare.

 

[mrmartin]

The problem is contactless devices like Android and Apple Pay have different card numbers presented at the point of use, but in the back end they are linked together to show you on your online account, but still kept separate, as you can't change device during your day or journey. Or you can switch device, but you'll risk no capping, or maximum fares.

Don't think this is correct. On Android + Apple Pay when the phone detects it is in 'Transit EMV' reader mode it doesn't scramble the numbers each time and instead uses just one consistent number. I'm not sure if it uses the same 16 digit number for all Transit EMVs (so for example, if you used in NYC and London, the number would be the same, or it generates a new one per provider). This is also the reason you don't have to put a PIN in on debit cards if you use it on the tube, as you'd quickly hit the 3 time limit. It doesn't use the same workflow as normal contactless payments in a shop.

It's complete nonsense that TfL can't sort out railcard discounts on contactless - my guess because they don't want to give the money off until the last possible minute. It has nothing to do with the banks - the 16 digit number is the identifier and everything is done at the back office. It would be trivial to, at the end of the day, apply a railcard discount before charging the debit/credit card (or phone). In fact it's a hell of a lot easier than on oyster cards as oyster needs to know some of the railcard logic embedded on the card.

 

[MikeWh]

It's complete nonsense that TfL can't sort out railcard discounts on contactless - my guess because they don't want to give the money off until the last possible minute. It has nothing to do with the banks - the 16 digit number is the identifier and everything is done at the back office. It would be trivial to, at the end of the day, apply a railcard discount before charging the debit/credit card (or phone). In fact it's a hell of a lot easier than on oyster cards as oyster needs to know some of the railcard logic embedded on the card.

The TOCs will not allow railcard discounts to be applied if they have no way of knowing that a railcard should be asked for when the contactless card/device is checked by a revenue inspector.

 

[mrmartin]

Can't see that being a problem either - read the 16 digit card number and cross reference it with a list of cards that have railcard discount applied. Doesn't seem any more complex than oyster railcards?