Channel 5 Documentary: Intercity 125

Discussion in 'Memorabilia, Media & Publications' started by squizzler, 11 May 2018.

  1. Willr2094

    Willr2094 Member

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    It wasn't too bad a programme about the history of the HST. There were a few inaccuracies though:
    1. It claimed the HST prototype set the 143mph speed record on a test track, when it set it on the East Coast Main Line between York and Thirsk
    2. It erroneously claimed that the High Speed Train invented the concept of a train operating with power cars at either end of its formation - when the idea had been tried before on the 1960s Blue Pullman sets and it also hid the fact that the APT had power cars at both ends
    3. They didn't mention that the APT was also affected by the same dispute with the unions regarding the safety of a train travelling at speeds of 100mph+ with only one driver.
    Other than that, it was generally a good programme and wasn't too dumbed down.
     
    Last edited: 16 May 2018
  2. The Lad

    The Lad Member

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    It is no accident that the HST was introduced in ER and WR where the track was a little straighter than the LM and consequently there were fewer restrictions due to curves and on ER some of the curves had been eased (Offord, Durham, Ferryhill, Selby et al)
     
  3. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    There are many reasons why a particular section of track is restricted to a particular speed, not all to do with curvature. Where differential (higher) speeds are permitted for HSTs, this is usually (always?) because the factor that limits speed for standard trains is signal spacing, and the better brakes of the HST allow them to stop from a higher speed. Other 125mph trains can also take advantage of HST differentials because they have similar brake performance.

    However whether the train tilts or otherwise has nothing to do with the speed when it would derail. The tilting allows them to approach closer to the derailment speed in comfort, but there is (or used to be) a standard requiring extra calculations to assess the risk of tilting trains overturning in high winds.
     
  4. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    I suspect 'SKG' knows rather more about it than you do. You must have missed what he said on the programme about it, including the details of the wind tunnel tests that were done for the prototype - at his instigation.
     
  5. Shaw S Hunter

    Shaw S Hunter Established Member

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    One could almost say the same about:

    HSFV1 did indeed come about due to the need to improve freight vehicle suspensions. It was just the first in a small series of such vehicles and actually pre-dates the best known cement train derailment, namely that which wrote off DP2. In terms of it being a fore-runner of anything it was the Pacer family of DMUs which was directly developed from the research programme. However as the behaviour of more complicated wheel/suspension arrangements was generally not very well understood what the programme also studied was the wheel/rail interface as part of the suspension design. It was this aspect of the HSFV research which was a significant contributor to the development of high speed passenger trains.

    Those wanting to read a little more could look at http://www.traintesting.com/HSFV1-4.htm
     
  6. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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  7. bignosemac

    bignosemac Established Member

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    Not quite.

    The non-passenger ATP-E (Experimental) did have gas turbine power cars at each end. But the ATP-P (Prototype), that briefly ran passenger services, had its power cars in the middle of the formation.
     
  8. GusB

    GusB Established Member

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    We can't just wipe the fact that Saville was involved from history. What he did was despicable, but there's absolutely no point in trying re-write history as if he didn't exist.
     
  9. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    An enjoyable programme, although I somewhat disapprove of the lumping together of the Southern's electric and diesel slam-door fleet with steam travel !
     
  10. squizzler

    squizzler Member

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    I also think the directory structure badly serves discussion of how railways appear in the mainstream media. To me it seems illogical to put it in the "railway hobbies and games" discussion board. I also don't think "memorabilia, media and publications" is coherent as I don't see much similarity between, say, collecting Edmundson tickets and discussing the latest fly-on-the-wall documentary on prime time telly. I would welcome a forum structure that spreads out posts between the different boards.
     
  11. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    Yes, there's a big difference between a book about locomotive liveries, and fly on the wall programme about the construction of Crossrail or HS2.

    To take an extreme example, suppose Panorama at the last minute decided to do a special on Monday covering the East Coast franchise fiasco, that would hardly fit into "railway hobbies and games"
     
  12. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    Well, I finally managed to watch this and it was better than I had expected, though some of the stuff bring spouted by some of those interviewed was nonsense.

    Anyone else clock Chris Green stating that the Japanese had 200 mph trains while we were still lumbering along at 100?
     
  13. aylesbury

    aylesbury On Moderation

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    Some bits good others downright awful ,APT part interesting saw it at Tring southbound one morning most impressive.Think the HST is best unit ever built for diesel services comfortable quiet and above all fast ,although I do like travelling on Penerlinos.
     
  14. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    I think it's a damn shame the APT-P wasn't refined and the "kinks" ironed out. If everything had gone to plan we might have had at least 155 mph running by now.

    For a stop-gap intended for 5-10 years service the HST has proved its worth and then some, I doubt any other train will ever come close to surpassing the InterCity 125.

    (Pendolinos aren't that bad mind you, I sort of like them! :oops: ;))
     
  15. 70014IronDuke

    70014IronDuke Established Member

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    OK, that's logical then. Thanks.
     
  16. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    I've just spent between 13.27 and 19.44 travelling on one from Paddington to Penzance via the 'long way round', and my back and legs are still recovering, so don't expect me to enthuse about the things. The only time we seemed to get anywhere near that 125 figure was for a short period from about fifteen minutes after Bristol TM before slowing to stop at Taunton, and, even then, we allowed the XC which arrived on an adjoining platform about three minutes later to precede us down to Tiverton, so negating any of the speed. Still, everyone says the Hitachis are even more uncomfortable, so I'll be ditching the train for long journeys in future if this is the case.
     
  17. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    I find that for reasons of comfort, it definitely pays to stop off for a pint at the Great Western hotel in Exeter en route (regardless of rolling stock).
     
  18. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    Well if you think the service was slow, it is the GWR HSTs are booked slower than in BR days. If you think the seats are uncomfortable or layout cramped in Standard, you would again be correct. If you think the ride quality was less than silky smooth, I wouldn't argue, the suspension has been altered from the original on most vehicles so it's no longer as silky smooth as it once was.

    However, they are still InterCity 125s and I still love them despite the detrimental modifications inflicted upon them! ;)
     
  19. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    The after break recap, the 'coming up' teaser and all the padding means the footage probably runs to about 5 minutes on a 1 hour documentary!

    Have you seen 'The Gift Shop sketch' which parodies this very well? Except it's not really parody because all shows pad the hell out of programmes now, with many documentaries desperate to sex things up when they don't have the content to justify it.
     
  20. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    Found the sketch, it's brilliant!

    I think the problem is that they think the people who watch documentaries all have the mental attention span of a 6 year old. There was a decent programme about the new Venice flood barrier a couple of weeks ago, and this had all the unnecessary attempts to generate false tension, as if the type of person who would tune in to watch a programme about a major civil engineering/construction project would turn off without the "excitement"
     
  21. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    How has the suspension been altered?
     
  22. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    As built all had long swing links on the bogies, now many have short swing links which have the effect of raising the natural lateral resonance frequency and giving a less silky ride.
     
  23. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    Which probably only becomes noticeable on poor track. I say blame the civil engineers!
     
  24. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    As far as I know the only reason to use short swing links is to allow operation on third rail routes. So we can blame whoever decided in the early days of the Southen Railway to keep and extend the LSWR third rail system instead of the LBSCR overhead!
     
  25. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    Yeah, I daresay the track quality is not as good either but having SSL means you notice the bumps all the more!
     
  26. silverfoxcc

    silverfoxcc Member

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    My late wife's family knew several people on that Eltham derailment
     
  27. Busaholic

    Busaholic Established Member

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    I like the look of them, and you've confirmed for me that they used to be better, and not just because they weren't so old! I used to travel regularly between Penzance and Plymouth 20-25 years ago, and the seating was a lot more spacious, with tables and room to stretch your legs when the train was less busy. I have to think of blood circulation a lot more than ever used to be the case.
     
  28. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    When built they seated 72 in Second Class trailers (this consisted of 8 tables of 4 on each side and two rows of airline seating one either side of the mid-carriage divider. This was increased to 76 in a somewhat higgledy-piggledy arrangement from about 1986 on refurbishment. Today GWR's high density Trailer Standards now seat 84 and have very few tables as well.
     
  29. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    The 76 seat arrangement wasn’t higgledy-piggledy as you put it: each half of the coach was a mirror image of the opposite half. One side in each half was not dissimilar to the original layout with 4 bays of 4 and an airline pair. The other side was one bay of four and 8 rows of airline seats. This was the only way to squeeze in an extra 4 seats per vehicle whilst still maintaining leg room. In terms of a compromise layout - and it did offer more airline seats, which some prefer (I do if on my own) - it was about as good as you get.

    As for the current GWR layout, it is a disgrace. Mutilated power cars and mutilated coaches means it is a very poor shadow of what the HST was at its best.
     
  30. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    I think the 76 seat layout was the best mixture of capacity and comfort. I agree, the GWR ones are a shambles.
     

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