Charged £1.30 in effect to walk between Tottenham Hale (LUL) and Tottenham Hale (NR) Stations!

[flythetube]

Using the Tfl Adult Single Fare Finder and making a journey from Tooting Broadway to Ware changing between LUL and NR at Tottenham Hale (Peak Fares), this shows as a fare of £11.20 and this is exactly what was charged.

However, out of curiosity and treating the journey as 2 x legs, the same Tfl Adult Single Fare Finder, at Peak Rate, shows Tooting Broadway to Tottenham Hale (LUL) as being £3.40 and Tottenham Hale (NR) to Ware as being £6.50 thus totalling £9.90, which is £1.30 cheaper than using 1 x Oyster or Bank Card for the entire journey!!

interestingly, the Tfl Adult Single Fare Finder shows the fare from Tottenham Hale (LUL) to Ware being £6.40, 10p cheaper than going from NR to Ware, but have no idea how you would do that by touching in and out!!!!

So that’s part 1.

Part 2 concerns Delay Repay as the 2O06 1928 from Tottenham Hale to Ware due to arrive at 19:58 did not arrive at Ware until 21:12 and a half due to an earlier train striking something between Cheshunt and Broxbourne.

Which operator does one apply to for a journey refund? Can Greater Anglia refund to an Oystercard? Can TFL Refund initially and claim back themselves from GA?

What proportion should be refunded? £6.50 for the NR portion, but that leaves the LUL portion looking like it was £3.40 plus the mysterious walking charge of £1.30?

any thoughts on this from esteemed and knowledgeable fares gurus?

 

[MikeWh]

However, out of curiosity and treating the journey as 2 x legs, the same Tfl Adult Single Fare Finder, at Peak Rate, shows Tooting Broadway to Tottenham Hale (LUL) as being £3.40 and Tottenham Hale (NR) to Ware as being £6.50 thus totalling £9.90, which is £1.30 cheaper than using 1 x Oyster or Bank Card for the entire journey!!

Welcome to the occasional world of split ticketing on Oyster!* This is caused because GA set fares for journeys to Broxbourne and beyond and they don't take account of the cheapness of fares in Central London.

interestingly, the Tfl Adult Single Fare Finder shows the fare from Tottenham Hale (LUL) to Ware being £6.40, 10p cheaper than going from NR to Ware, but have no idea how you would do that by touching in and out!!!!

It's actually the other way round (NR £6.40, LU £6.50) and I'd say that is an error on GAs part, though I wouldn't like to guess which one is correct. To make the journey take GA (and/or LO) to Seven Sisters and then take the Victoria line to Tottenham Hale.

Which operator does one apply to for a journey refund? Can Greater Anglia refund to an Oystercard? Can TFL Refund initially and claim back themselves from GA?

The operator who delayed you (in this case GA). No, they'll refund by cheque or vouchers as usual for delay repay. No, if TfL delayed you then you'd be subject to their compensation arrangements.

What proportion should be refunded? £6.50 for the NR portion, but that leaves the LUL portion looking like it was £3.40 plus the mysterious walking charge of £1.30?

Send in your journey history with the claim and I'd expect it to be based on the whole journey.


* If you don't mind some funny looks you can actually get the split fare. When you touch out of the Tottenham Hale station that you arrive at, immediately go back in through another gate, then come straight back out again and finally touch in to the other station and continue your journey. This would split your journey into a Tooting to Tottenham Hale LU journey and a separate Tottenham Hale LU to Ware journey utilising the out of station interchange (OSI) between the two Tottenham Hale stations at the start.

 

[JonathanH]

Welcome to the occasional world of split ticketing on Oyster!* This is caused because GA set fares for journeys to Broxbourne and beyond and they don't take account of the cheapness of fares in Central London.

This looks like a useful source of additional revenue that TfL really ought to be tapping into - ie charging for the zones passed through on both sides of Zone 1. It is a bit odd that a Zone 6 to Zone 6 via Zone 1 journey is charged at the same rate as Zone 6 to Zone 1 fares and leads to anomalies where the TOC fares are charged for travel on both sides of London.

 

[MikeWh]

This looks like a useful source of additional revenue that TfL really ought to be tapping into - ie charging for the zones passed through on both sides of Zone 1. It is a bit odd that a Zone 6 to Zone 6 via Zone 1 journey is charged at the same rate as Zone 6 to Zone 1 fares and leads to anomalies where the TOC fares are charged for travel on both sides of London.

It's the same if you stop in zone 1. The whole point of Oyster is that you only pay once for each zone you use.

Oxford Circus to Tottenham Hale £3.40
Tottenham Hale to Ware £6.40
Oxford Circus to Ware £11.20

 

[JonathanH]

It's the same if you stop in zone 1. The whole point of Oyster is that you only pay once for each zone you use.

Oxford Circus to Tottenham Hale £3.40
Tottenham Hale to Ware £6.40
Oxford Circus to Ware £11.20

Yes. However, I was making the point that TfL, desperately looking for revenue, ought to make people pay more than once for the same zone on each side of London. Doing this will then mean there aren't anomalies for journeys which go outside Zone 6 - eg Tooting Broadway (zone 3) to Tottenham Hale (zone 3) should cost more than Tooting Broadway (zone 3) to Oxford Circus (zone 1). If it did, then the higher cost might offset some of the additional charge of £1.30.

However, I note your point that this doesn't remove the anomaly caused simply by higher fares beyond Zone 6. I also note that Tooting Broadway to Hertford East costs the same as Oxford Circus to Hertford East so there would still be an anomaly.

 

[MikeWh]

The point is that it's not just TfL. The whole concept of Oyster is the same (notwithstanding different fare scales). Thus Crayford to Waterloo East costs the same as Crayford to Hampton Court (via WAE-WAT). To change this would be a major change and end up with lots of people paying extra. It's not just via zone 1 either. Crayford to Orpington is 6-5-4-3-4-5-6. A journey that I make regularly is even worse. Crayford to Shortlands would be 6-5-4-3-4-5-4 (changing at Hither Green and Petts Wood).

 

[yorkie]

This looks like a useful source of additional revenue that TfL really ought to be tapping into...

Err, no.

Yes. However, I was making the point that TfL, desperately looking for revenue, ought to make people pay more than once for the same zone on each side of London. Doing this will then mean there aren't anomalies for journeys which go outside Zone 6 - eg Tooting Broadway (zone 3) to Tottenham Hale (zone 3) should cost more than Tooting Broadway (zone 3) to Oxford Circus (zone 1). If it did, then the higher cost might offset some of the additional charge of £1.30.

However, I note your point that this doesn't remove the anomaly caused simply by higher fares beyond Zone 6. I also note that Tooting Broadway to Hertford East costs the same as Oxford Circus to Hertford East so there would still be an anomaly.

In other words, you just want to charge people more.

The idea that higher fares reduces anomalies and simply raises income is an absolute fallacy

 

[flythetube]

Having looked further, as the 1st leg Tooting Broadway to Tottenham Hale (LUL) was started in the Peak, so £3.90, the 2nd leg on NR GA commenced Off Peak so really should be £4.40 Tottenham Hale (NR) to Ware (NR) so by using 2 x separate Oyster Cards or 2 separate Bank Cards for each leg, the fare would have been only £8.30 for this journey as opposed to £11.20 charged as a through fare charged entirely as Peak Rate simply because the journey started at a Peak time.

So technically using 2 x Oyster Cards or 2 x Bank Cards or 1 x Oyster and 1 x Bank Card can save a total of £2.90 for this single journey.

 

[MikeWh]

So technically using 2 x Oyster Cards or 2 x Bank Cards or 1 x Oyster and 1 x Bank Card can save a total of £2.90 for this single journey.

Or do the out-in-out described in my earlier post.

 

[flythetube]

Doesn’t an in and out cause a maximum fare to be charged? Or because a journey has just been registered prior to the re-touch in and out prevent that from happening?

 

[Paul Kelly]

Doesn’t an in and out cause a maximum fare to be charged? Or because a journey has just been registered prior to the re-touch in and out prevent that from happening?

Surely it's the second journey after the "in and out", that will be joined to it by the OSI, that determines the charge? At least that's what MikeWh said in post 2:

a separate Tottenham Hale LU to Ware journey utilising the out of station interchange (OSI) between the two Tottenham Hale stations at the start.

 

[MikeWh]

Doesn’t an in and out cause a maximum fare to be charged? Or because a journey has just been registered prior to the re-touch in and out prevent that from happening?

Yes it would if nothing further happened afterwards. Because of the osi the in and out get joined onto the second journey. If there was no osi then touching in for a new journey within 45 minutes of the in and out cancels the maximum fare and starts a new journey.

 

[Cdd89]

I think there is a strong argument that TfL should be automatically splitting journeys where an OSI has taken place, where that OSI would result in a cheaper fare, at least on Contactless. They have the technology to do so. Also it’s not just unusual routes like this, it’s also many TfL zonal fares where the first touch in happened in the peak but the next OSI touch in happened in the off peak.

(I’m sure some would argue they should go further and charge the lowest fare of any split that could be done, but I’d say that’s unreasonable as the split often takes some effort such as waiting for a later train; with an OSI the effort has already been put in!).

 

[flythetube]

Apart from the touch out then immediately touch back in and straight out at Tottenham Hale (LUL) station to force the Oyster system to close off leg 1 as a separately charged for journey then continue touch in the NR station to obtain the lower off peak fare I suppose one could exit the LUL station and wait out the OSI time allowance of 20 minutes then continue to the NR station for the same effect, maybe popping over to the Retail Park to kill the time.

I guess it would be quite amusing watching the CCTV of people doing the touch out, touch in and touch out dance at Tottenham Hale (LUL) if many did it en masse!!

I wonder what the staff or RPI’s make of that!!

 

[hkstudent]

It's the same if you stop in zone 1. The whole point of Oyster is that you only pay once for each zone you use.

Oxford Circus to Tottenham Hale £3.40
Tottenham Hale to Ware £6.40
Oxford Circus to Ware £11.20

If I fall into the trap of one through fare is expensive than 2 separate journeys (even with OSI made at interchange station), is it possible for me to ring up TfL hotline for refunding the difference?
(For example: West Ruislip via Shepherds Bush & Clapham Junction to Crayford would be expensive than West Ruislip - Shepherds Bush + Shepherds Bush - Crayford)

 

[Argyle 1980]

So what would happen if you tapped in at Bank and walked to and exited from Monument for example? Or even if you tapped in on the H&C at Paddington and went to either Baker Street or Edgware Road and took Bakerloo/District back to Paddington and exited from the Bakerloo/District gates?
TFL lists no fares for such searches.

 

[Cdd89]

So what would happen if you tapped in at Bank and walked to and exited from Monument for example? Or even if you tapped in on the H&C at Paddington and went to either Baker Street or Edgware Road and took Bakerloo/District back to Paddington and exited from the Bakerloo/District gates?
TFL lists no fares for such searches.

The Oyster system makes up a fare on the fly. I think I’ve shared this before on here, but I processed the routing data some months ago to produce a list of all station pairs with no fares between them.

This post triggered a whole new conversation about HS1 which can be found on this thread.

 

[silverfoxcc]

Can i just add that i have found the people at Tfl 100% helpful whenever i hsave contacted them. If any of you are on here then chapeau to you all