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Charged for entering and exiting station.

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TrainTube

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I don't quite know why this happened, but on Thursday I tapped in to Kingston station. After going to the platform, I saw that my train was heavily delayed, so decided to leave the station and get a bus. I then tapped out of the station. As you can see, I had £5.30 before and it charged me £4.20 for tapping in and out. £1.10 is my remaining balance. Can anyone explain why it charged this, u can see the short time interval.Screenshot_20200719_112905.jpg
 
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swt_passenger

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It is explained on TfL’s site somewhere. It’s an anti-fare evasion feature:


you'll need to scroll down to “Same station exits”
 

Hadders

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There is a link on the web page linked to above by @swt_passenger where you can apply for a refund.
 

Driver2B

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You are charged that automatically to avoid fare avoidance and fare evasion.

However, you are entitled to a refund if you did not make a journey, and have not applied for this type of refund in the previous seven days:

Hope this is helpful.
 

Taunton

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It really is rather poor. On the DLR you have to tap in before getting to the platform where you discover services are suspended. I have seen large numbers going in then coming out again, do they all get charged? It shouldn't be beyond the wit of the programming not to charge if this happens at a station where a suspension/big delay has been recorded. It's particularly bad on the DLR as the ticket machines, including the most recent replacements, are unable to show journey history. Goodness knows how TfL authorised the DLR operator to install those.

It's all tied up with the TfL attitude that anyone who doesn't follow their complete sequence of events must be a criminal.
 

mmh

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I'm puzzling, trying to work out what form of fare evasion the 0-2 minute bracket is targeting. All the scenarios I can think of involve a second person, and none of them are plausible.
 

swt_passenger

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I'm puzzling, trying to work out what form of fare evasion the 0-2 minute bracket is targeting. All the scenarios I can think of involve a second person, and none of them are plausible.
Touch in to get through barrier, touch out without going through barrier, travel to distant station without barriers?
 

mmh

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Touch in to get through barrier, touch out without going through barrier, travel to distant station without barriers?

Ah, of course. The ideas I had were passbacks of cards, none of which really made any sense.
 

PeterC

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It really is rather poor. On the DLR you have to tap in before getting to the platform where you discover services are suspended. I have seen large numbers going in then coming out again, do they all get charged? It shouldn't be beyond the wit of the programming not to charge if this happens at a station where a suspension/big delay has been recorded. It's particularly bad on the DLR as the ticket machines, including the most recent replacements, are unable to show journey history. Goodness knows how TfL authorised the DLR operator to install those.

It's all tied up with the TfL attitude that anyone who doesn't follow their complete sequence of events must be a criminal.
Incomplete journeys may be corrected automatically if there is an issue. It has certainly happened to me.
 

87 027

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I remember this type of evasion being specifically featured on one of the older TfL documentaries. They showed CCTV of someone tapping in at a gateline, and as they walked through they then leaned over to tap out on the reader of the adjacent gate before continuing onto the platform
 

MotCO

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Touch in to get through barrier, touch out without going through barrier, travel to distant station without barriers?

But given that the OP caught a bus instead, the TfL records should be obvious as to what actually happened.
 

CrispyUK

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Incomplete journeys may be corrected automatically if there is an issue. It has certainly happened to me.
The TfL site states that they “aim to automatically refund you for a same station exit if you have not had one in the last 7 days.” and you can submit a claim for a refund if this hasn’t happened after 48 hours.
 

Mojo

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I remember this type of evasion being specifically featured on one of the older TfL documentaries. They showed CCTV of someone tapping in at a gateline, and as they walked through they then leaned over to tap out on the reader of the adjacent gate before continuing onto the platform
That was a different issue and concerned someone with a Travelcard, on which no charge is made if you touch in and out at a station within your paid for zones.
 

Taunton

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But given that the OP caught a bus instead, the TfL records should be obvious as to what actually happened.
It's a lot easier to just charge. I wonder what percentage of such items are realised and challenged. 20%?

I did Victoria to Canary Wharf DLR, changing at the OSI Tower Hill/Gateway. Somehow the Tower Hill gateline didn't record the touching out, although it's not possible to exit there without doing so. So it saw my touch in at Tower Gateway DLR as a touch out there from Victoria 20 minutes beforehand, which is obviously a routing nonsense, and then my touch out at Canary Wharf as an incompleted touch in, and charged the maximum fare. I did spot it. When I subsequently asked for a refund I was treated as if I was Jack the Ripper reincarnated.
 

PeterC

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It's a lot easier to just charge. I wonder what percentage of such items are realised and challenged. 20%?

I did Victoria to Canary Wharf DLR, changing at the OSI Tower Hill/Gateway. Somehow the Tower Hill gateline didn't record the touching out, although it's not possible to exit there without doing so. So it saw my touch in at Tower Gateway DLR as a touch out there from Victoria 20 minutes beforehand, which is obviously a routing nonsense, and then my touch out at Canary Wharf as an incompleted touch in, and charged the maximum fare. I did spot it. When I subsequently asked for a refund I was treated as if I was Jack the Ripper reincarnated.
I had a similar problem when I had to travel to Caledonian Road but first drop off some documents in Dalston. I travelled to Kingsland, walked down to my destination and then carried on to Dalston Junction. I had forgotten about the OSI and was within time but my journey timed out before arrival at Caledonian Road. No barriers there so the touch out was recorded as a touch in and I couldn't get the help desk to understand that it simply should have been a touch out.
 

ABB125

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I once had an issue with TfL, it was the first time I'd used an Oyster card for a day of traveling around London. For some reason the system charged me two maximum fares. I called TfL a few days later and managed to get a refund, but neither the man on the phone, nor his manager whom he checked with when I asked, were aware that you can get Railcard discounts on Oyster cards, so I ended up paying the full zones 1-6 rate rather than the discount rate.
 

Cdd89

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Notably tapping in at another station refunds the charge and starts a new journey. It could be argued this should apply to buses too, but maybe there are technical or revenue reasons why that doesn’t happen.
 

Taunton

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Notably tapping in at another station refunds the charge and starts a new journey.
This appears correct at Underground station barriers, which have separate touch in and out units on either side of the barrier to distinguish, and were of course the original basis of the design. At an apparently late stage it moved on to the two-way units you find at unbarriered DLR stations and some other points, I understand purely as a cost saving move to avoid putting in two readers and the expense of laying in a power supply cable - this also accounts for some of the sub-optimal positioning of the readers, which are in different places at different DLR stations and not necessarily "in your face" (London City Airport station was a particularly bad example of this for years). These depend on logic for working out whether you are touching in or out. For those who only use mainstream Underground stations with a full gateline, possibly you have not experienced DLR stations with just one reader and the number of occasions when it is out of order - which is not advised to the DLR on-train ticket checking staff I discovered.

Ken Livingstone, who became Mayor during the development, stated in a radio interview I heard that his overall instruction to the development team was not to go for absolute perfection, which would take for ever, but to get the basics all up and working. While this is a very reasonable approach, and needs stating firmly on a number of rail and other projects, it doesn't quite gel with the progressive attitude, developed in fairness under subsequent Mayors, that anyone who appears not to have done everything perfectly is a criminal and gets fined the "Maximum Fare". Before anyone says it is not a fine, that is what all the general public passengers call it. It also doesn't gel with the sheer number of software logic updates that have had to be made to the system to deal with technical issues that were generally those not envisaged by the developers. The Out of Station Interchange logic took a particularly long time to get right apparently.

I was "maximum fared" I discovered on us all being ushered quickly out of Marble Arch station where the fire alarms had gone off and all the gates opened. I returned home from somewhere like Leicester Square, apparently the system could only auto-complete if you return later from the same station.

I suspect that Contactless is better at it than Oyster, depending on a big computer server to work out overnight what you may have done, rather than Oyster having to determine it as you go along at each unit.
 
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TrainTube

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So I have read about it being to stop fare evasion, my question is why is the time interval for it up to 2 mins, and not sooner like 1 minute. If your gonna tap in and out to fare evade you would do it in a short space of time, you wouldn't do it 2 mins later.

I've applied manually for a refund so will respond with the outcome once I receive info on it.
 

Cdd89

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I've also occasionally wondered why 0-2 minutes and 2-30 minutes are treated differently - 2 minutes' difference seems very short, whether to differentiate behaviour, or for anyone so-minded to wait in order to exploit the difference.
 

Belperpete

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The TfL site states that they “aim to automatically refund you for a same station exit if you have not had one in the last 7 days.” and you can submit a claim for a refund if this hasn’t happened after 48 hours.
Does that apply if it happens at a National Rail station, as per the OP?
 

jumble

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I've also occasionally wondered why 0-2 minutes and 2-30 minutes are treated differently - 2 minutes' difference seems very short, whether to differentiate behaviour, or for anyone so-minded to wait in order to exploit the difference.
It is a bit baffling but may be the fact that it charges maximum fare when you enter and it was too difficult to implement completing the journey and reopening it rather than suspending it during the first 2 minutes

The 2 minutes is very useful at somewhere like Rayners lane
I can go through the barriers and then see if there is a train coming
If not I can go back out and top up my Oyster /grab a Metro

However I get your point as this could easily be used for passback
 
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