Charging a passenger who got on at a later point from the origin of the train

[mikeg]

I recently got on a Crosscountry train from Stoke to Manchester, originating at Birmingham New Street. I had the right ticket, but the man next to me had a Virgin Trains only ticket. The guard said "That's a Virgin Trains only ticket. You'll have to buy a new ticket." Fair enough so far, but then he went on to say "What I should do is charge you all the way from Birmingham, but this time I'll only charge you from Stoke since that's where you got on". It's perhaps worth noting that the passenger had made it clear that he hadn't realised his error.
What I want to know is are guards allowed to do this? I thought something like that would be against the National Conditions of Carriage, surely they should always charge from where the passenger got on, even in the absence of a valid ticket? Or do you think the guard was just making this up in order to discourage the passenger from doing the same again? I'm inclined to think the latter.

 

[John @ home]

I think we would need to know precisely what was printed on the other passenger's ticket before we could advise on this one.

 

[455driver]

I get the feeling that all guards should stick rigidly to the NCoC and NEVER give paxs the benefit of the doubt or help them out. It would stop all the "well last time blah blah blah" or "another guard said blah blah blah".
The guard is in charge of the train and can work within the rules, if they want to be reasonable to a passenger that is in the wrong then that is their prerogative, if they want to use the full weight of the rules then that again is their prerogative and in no way will influence how they deal with the next passenger. All this "can they do this" or "can they do that", well usually yes they can (sometimes they get it wrong but not often).

 

[gordonthemoron]

two weeks ago I was on a train from Bremen to Rotenburg (in Germany) with my bike, when the guard checked my tickets he said that my bike ticket was incorrect but as no-one could understand the ticket machines, he would not charge me extra.

Would this happen in the UK?

 

[richw]

on this basis a train from Penzance to Newcastle for example got on at York in this situation, would they be expected to pay for a ticket all the way from penzance?

 

[Greenback]

I've seen guards let people off for all sorts of things, from being on the wrong train with an AP ticket, to being off route! It's usually really good, like when I couldn;t hear an announcement at Bristol that my train, scheduled to go to Taunton via W-S-M, was in fact now forming a Westbury service. My subsequent diversion to Bath where I got off and returned to Bristol was unwelcome as it was, without being asked to buy another ticket by a keen train manager!

On train staff can't win! they get criticism for using initiative, and criticised for doing the job 'by the book'!

 

[generalvegitable]

two weeks ago I was on a train from Bremen to Rotenburg (in Germany) with my bike, when the guard checked my tickets he said that my bike ticket was incorrect but as no-one could understand the ticket machines, he would not charge me extra.

Would this happen in the UK?

depends on the operator, in my experience virgin make sure bike reservations are checked and valid before boarding and always make sure a staff member can assist when necessary. EMT couldn't care less about the bike. otherwise I have no experience

 

[caughtonatrain]

I'd be interested in the answer to the OP's question. Not sure I'm much clearer, though. It seems crazy to charge somebody on the basis of where the train originates if they did not get on at that station. What if somebody got on, say, the Penzance train mentioned by richw (by some genuine mistake - not that outlandish if you rarely travel by train) - why should theybe penalised because of the randomness of which train you wrongly got on?

Surely you cannot be charged for a journey you didn't make? If the guard 'knew' the passenger got on at Stoke, it shouldn't even be a point of debate: the passenger should be charged from Stoke.

But as I say, I'd like to hear the "official" answer to this, if one exists.

 

[generalvegitable]

I'd be interested in the answer to the OP's question. Not sure I'm much clearer, though. It seems crazy to charge somebody on the basis of where the train originates if they did not get on at that station. What if somebody got on, say, the Penzance train mentioned by richw (by some genuine mistake - not that outlandish if you rarely travel by train) - why should theybe penalised because of the randomness of which train you wrongly got on?

Surely you cannot be charged for a journey you didn't make? If the guard 'knew' the passenger got on at Stoke, it shouldn't even be a point of debate: the passenger should be charged from Stoke.

But as I say, I'd like to hear the "official" answer to this, if one exists.

AFAIK what the ticket inspector should have done in that situation is excess the passenger's ticket to allow them to use the train in question, what if the train was going from Penzance to Edinburgh, and the passenger was just doing lets say Dunbar to Edinburgh (the details don't really matter) , would the passenger be charged for a journey all the way from Penzance??

 

[AlexS]

Discretion is a necessary part of the job I feel!

An MML train manager once really got my back up and it wasn't even me he was dealing with. A passenger with a first class Virgin ticket had got on the MML train due to the WCML being up the wall and naturally sat in First. The TM booted them out to standard, but didn't even listen to what they had to say, just put his hand up in their face and turned away until they moved. They weren't even arguing, they just wanted to say that they weren't made aware of it to start with.

I wanted to smack him myself, let alone the person he was talking to.

Made his life as difficult as possible as water was leaking through the roof of the carriage (wonderful) by dragging him out of his cubby hole every 15 minutes to dry it up thereafter, slipping hazard don't you know.

 

[Ferret]

I recently got on a Crosscountry train from Stoke to Manchester, originating at Birmingham New Street. I had the right ticket, but the man next to me had a Virgin Trains only ticket. The guard said "That's a Virgin Trains only ticket. You'll have to buy a new ticket." Fair enough so far, but then he went on to say "What I should do is charge you all the way from Birmingham, but this time I'll only charge you from Stoke since that's where you got on". It's perhaps worth noting that the passenger had made it clear that he hadn't realised his error.
What I want to know is are guards allowed to do this? I thought something like that would be against the National Conditions of Carriage, surely they should always charge from where the passenger got on, even in the absence of a valid ticket? Or do you think the guard was just making this up in order to discourage the passenger from doing the same again? I'm inclined to think the latter.

Unless the train was set down only at Stoke and had come direct from Brum (which I doubt!) then I don't see any logical reason to charge from Birmingham. More likely it was a TM trying to almost scare the passenger into not jumping on an XC with a VT ticket again. Hmmmm.

 

[scrapy]

No the train manager can only charge the passenger the full fare for the journey he was making. The ticket cannot be excessed as it was TOC specific. The TM should have given the passenger the option of a ticket to Manchester or a ticket to Macclesfield/Stockport where they would change to a Virgin service.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

AFAIK what the ticket inspector should have done in that situation is excess the passenger's ticket to allow them to use the train in question, what if the train was going from Penzance to Edinburgh, and the passenger was just doing lets say Dunbar to Edinburgh (the details don't really matter) , would the passenger be charged for a journey all the way from Penzance??

No, as stated he should charge for a brand new ticket for the part of the journey completed on that train. You cannot excess a TOC specific ticket.

In this case I would charge for a new ticket for the journey he completed on my train. How he got to Stoke, or whether another member of staff elsewhere either hasn't noticed or chose to ignore the restriction is of no concern to me, or the XC Guard in this case.

The only time I will charge for the full journey printed on the ticket all over again is the case of Railcard discounted tickets with no Railcard. Irrespective of whether other train crew have not noticed, not checked or not been bothered, the whole journey has been completed without a Railcard, so the whole journey gets charged for again. Otherwise, generally, I'm only bothered about the bit on my train.


I am not aware of any official instruction either way.

 

[yorkie]

No the train manager can only charge the passenger the full fare for the journey he was making. The ticket cannot be excessed as it was TOC specific. The TM should have given the passenger the option of a ticket to Manchester or a ticket to Macclesfield/Stockport where they would change to a Virgin service.

Yep, I'd agree with that. Although they are within their rights to charge from Stoke, and the customer can choose to pay only to the next stop and get off there, or they can choose to pay to their destination (or another station e.g. Stockport) for convenience. As it's £5.50 to Macclesfield and £7.50 to Manchester, they may as well pay to Manchester.

There is no point in them making an empty threat to a customer for a journey the customer hasn't made. It just shows the TM up and is unprofessional.

 

[MikeWh]

The only time I will charge for the full journey printed on the ticket all over again is the case of Railcard discounted tickets with no Railcard. Irrespective of whether other train crew have not noticed, not checked or not been bothered, the whole journey has been completed without a Railcard, so the whole journey gets charged for again. Otherwise, generally, I'm only bothered about the bit on my train.

Is it not possible to lose a railcard en-route, for example when running between trains. I certainly know how easy it has been for my kids to lose their oyster cards as I've twice had to pay the replacement charge since they were first issued in January. Both times the card was lost on trains/stations as I don't let them have them at other times. If I got charged for the whole of a multi train journey in that situation then I'd certainly be complaining to the TOC about their RPI.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Is it not possible to lose a railcard en-route, for example when running between trains. I certainly know how easy it has been for my kids to lose their oyster cards as I've twice had to pay the replacement charge since they were first issued in January. Both times the card was lost on trains/stations as I don't let them have them at other times. If I got charged for the whole of a multi train journey in that situation then I'd certainly be complaining to the TOC about their RPI.

Like many cases, in genuine cases where this has happenned you can normally tell who is genuine and who is not. It just comes to experience and that sixth sense. You can just tell by their behaviour, attitude, whether you get the 5 minute ticket dance, etc.

 

[Ferret]

Is it not possible to lose a railcard en-route, for example when running between trains. I certainly know how easy it has been for my kids to lose their oyster cards as I've twice had to pay the replacement charge since they were first issued in January. Both times the card was lost on trains/stations as I don't let them have them at other times. If I got charged for the whole of a multi train journey in that situation then I'd certainly be complaining to the TOC about their RPI.

With all due respect, you've got no grounds for complaint there at all. Read the conditions of carriage....
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There is no point in them making an empty threat to a customer for a journey the customer hasn't made. It just shows the TM up and is unprofessional.

I agree, a bit of a pointless one that! But then, it only shows the TM up if the customer knows what he's talking about and says 'now hang on a minute.........'

Still, why waste your time though - it's a straight forward ching for an SOT-*** and then go and ching the rest of the train as far as I'm concerned - no grand statements, no scene created - simples!

 

[krus_aragon]

depends on the operator, in my experience virgin make sure bike reservations are checked and valid before boarding and always make sure a staff member can assist when necessary. EMT couldn't care less about the bike. otherwise I have no experience

Virgin may do at the London end, but in a year's commuting along the North Wales coast (usually with Arriva, but sometimes Virgin) nobody ever said a thing as I hung my bike on the butchers' hooks for two stops.