Charing Cross and Waterloo Query

[R848]

Have a 2 part historical query.

1) Even though Waterloo railway station in 1848 was opened some 16 years before Charing Cross railway station in 1864, were there any proposals for a curve to link the two stations at some point thereby allowing Charing Cross to travel both southeast via Waterloo East and southwest via Waterloo?

2) Relating to the above it is mentioned Waterloo railway station was never originally planned to be a terminus, but rather was to continue towards the City of London. Is it known approximately whereabouts the original route was to terminate at?

 

[superjohn]

There weren’t just proposals, a connecting chord was actually built. You can see the bridge that carried it immediately below the footbridge that forms the current pedestrian link to Waterloo East. There is some more information in this article:
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2011/the-waterloo-link/

Edit: Having read your post again, I see you mean a link in the other direction! The linked article is still interesting all the same.

 

[John Webb]

According to Alan A Jackson's comprehensive book "London's Termini" (David and Charles, 2nd Ed 1985, ISBN 0 7135 8634 4) the LSWR's original terminus, roughly where the present platforms 7-11 are, was built as a through station, as they had obtained an act in 1846 to extend to London Bridge. They even bought property to the SW of London Bridge. But the financial crisis of 1848-49 killed off the extension, and from 1853 onwards further buildings were erected to improve facilities, including in 1854 the "London Necropolis Railway" facility adjacent to the LSWR terminus.

The SER connection to the LSWR station from the line to Charing Cross was opened in 1864, and the 'Waterloo East' station was opened in 1869. The connection was taken out in 1911 as rebuilding of the terminus station started.​

 

[Taunton]

Of course, the LSWR did extend onwards to The City, by building the W&C.

Meanwhile, the link eastwards to the South Eastern viaduct had previously given the same result, or if not by through train then by connection, as most trains heading eastwards ran initially to Cannon Street, and reverse, before carrying on towards Kent.

 

[PeterC]

According to Alan A Jackson's comprehensive book "London's Termini" (David and Charles, 2nd Ed 1985, ISBN 0 7135 8634 4) the LSWR's original terminus, roughly where the present platforms 7-11 are, was built as a through station, as they had obtained an act in 1846 to extend to London Bridge. They even bought property to the SW of London Bridge. But the financial crisis of 1848-49 killed off the extension, and from 1853 onwards further buildings were erected to improve facilities, including in 1854 the "London Necropolis Railway" facility adjacent to the LSWR terminus.

The SER connection to the LSWR station from the line to Charing Cross was opened in 1864, and the 'Waterloo East' station was opened in 1869. The connection was taken out in 1911 as rebuilding of the terminus station started.​

Just re-read War of the Worlds (written in the late 1890s). There is a mention there of the connection being used for a troop train, this being considered an exceptional occurrence.

 

[randyrippley]

I've read somewhere that the link only survived as long as it did to enable Royal trains to get to the SE after a pickup somewhere closer to Buck House. Didn't Victoria prefer to use Olympia?

 

[John Webb]

I've read somewhere that the link only survived as long as it did to enable Royal trains to get to the SE after a pickup somewhere closer to Buck House. Didn't Victoria prefer to use Olympia?

Alan Jackson's book mentions that Queen Victoria used the connection when she travelled from the LSWR station at Windsor to access the Channel ports. She also preferred to use the older Nine Elms terminus as this gave her greater privacy; her royal saloons were kept at Nine Elms.

 

[R848]

There weren’t just proposals, a connecting chord was actually built. You can see the bridge that carried it immediately below the footbridge that forms the current pedestrian link to Waterloo East. There is some more information in this article:
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2011/the-waterloo-link/

Edit: Having read your post again, I see you mean a link in the other direction! The linked article is still interesting all the same.

According to Alan A Jackson's comprehensive book "London's Termini" (David and Charles, 2nd Ed 1985, ISBN 0 7135 8634 4) the LSWR's original terminus, roughly where the present platforms 7-11 are, was built as a through station, as they had obtained an act in 1846 to extend to London Bridge. They even bought property to the SW of London Bridge. But the financial crisis of 1848-49 killed off the extension, and from 1853 onwards further buildings were erected to improve facilities, including in 1854 the "London Necropolis Railway" facility adjacent to the LSWR terminus.

The SER connection to the LSWR station from the line to Charing Cross was opened in 1864, and the 'Waterloo East' station was opened in 1869. The connection was taken out in 1911 as rebuilding of the terminus station started.​

Fascinating, so the LWSR could have potentially ran to London Bridge at one point and had it been realized would presumably have also opened up the possibility for trains from Waterloo to eventually run to Blackfriars and Cannon Street (albeit at the cost of likely butterflying away Waterloo East).

Am intrigued by the historical feasibility of a curve from Waterloo (as opposed to Waterloo East) to Charing Cross railway stations, especially if NW&CCR's (and successors) plans for a tunnel between Charing Cross and Euston was built.

 

[Snow1964]

Nine Elms was the initial terminus (designed to be served by river boats, as few good roads then existed)

Waterloo Road was a temporary station initially (Line was intended to continue), but eventually became the terminus, and whole assortment of adjacent stations were built before got knocked down and rebuilt as one large station (actually work was cut back and the 1885 Windsor station and buildings (usually called the village) remained for about a century until 1980s when Eurostar station was constructed.

The South Eastern effectively blocked the route with their Charing Cross extension, I think the 4th track was added later and is obvious when walking under any of the viaduct, as the arches and bridges are different

 

[RLBH]

Is it known approximately whereabouts the original route was to terminate at?

I believe that the LSWR was intending to extend broadly along the route later used by the SER to reach a station somewhere in the vicinity of London Bridge, though I can't remember where I saw this.

 

[Snow1964]

I believe that the LSWR was intending to extend broadly along the route later used by the SER to reach a station somewhere in the vicinity of London Bridge, though I can't remember where I saw this.

I also think I read something similar in a History of LSWR book, can't remember details as it was years ago that I read it, but plan was for a terminus somewhere near the river on South Bank. As Borough Market and environs was already developed, may have been aiming for a site near Southwark bridge (the older bridge, not the current 1921 version), but even in 1840s the land was becoming difficult to obtain which is why it never got further than it did.

I do remember reading the original aim had been for a much straighter line, and the big loop was to avoid the old Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens (and i think some subsequent widening from 4 to 8 tracks added more curves as couldn't all be done on same side)

 

[DelW]

Am intrigued by the historical feasibility of a curve from Waterloo (as opposed to Waterloo East) to Charing Cross railway stations, especially if NW&CCR's (and successors) plans for a tunnel between Charing Cross and Euston was built.

Interestingly, the earliest large scale map on the NLS site, dated 1872, shows a couple of tracks heading in that direction, possibly engine sidings since there's a turntable on the approach. Quite a few buildings would have had to be demolished to reach Hungerford Bridge, but that probably wouldn't have worried Victorian railway builders much.
It also shows the connection to Waterloo East, then called Waterloo Junction Station, and the very different layout of the early station from the Edwardian rebuild.
I hope I've managed to attach a screenshot, since I don't seem to be able to post a link to the NLS page.



(Screenshot of map on NLS website)

 

[swt_passenger]

I expect eventually the Victorians realised the Charing Cross site just wouldn't be wide enough to provide a decent terminus for more than the SE 3-4 track approach into 6 platforms. I don’t recall anything detailed about a potential southwest to north curve in the various histories I’ve read over the years. They could have ended up with something like the western connection into Cannon St, a bit of a sideshow with respect to the majority service?

 

[R848]

Interestingly, the earliest large scale map on the NLS site, dated 1872, shows a couple of tracks heading in that direction, possibly engine sidings since there's a turntable on the approach. Quite a few buildings would have had to be demolished to reach Hungerford Bridge, but that probably wouldn't have worried Victorian railway builders much.
It also shows the connection to Waterloo East, then called Waterloo Junction Station, and the very different layout of the early station from the Edwardian rebuild.
I hope I've managed to attach a screenshot, since I don't seem to be able to post a link to the NLS page.

View attachment 75244

(Screenshot of map on NLS website)

Thanks for the screenshot, interesting indeed that such a route from Waterloo to Charing Cross was once possible.

I expect eventually the Victorians realised the Charing Cross site just wouldn't be wide enough to provide a decent terminus for more than the SE 3-4 track approach into 6 platforms. I don’t recall anything detailed about a potential southwest to north curve in the various histories I’ve read over the years. They could have ended up with something like the western connection into Cannon St, a bit of a sideshow with respect to the majority service?

Largely agree that an expanded LSWR route would have probably been better off traveling towards Blackfriars, Cannon Street or London Bridge and beyond as opposed to Charing Cross. That said some form of Snow Hill-like NW&CCR tunnel between Charing Cross and Euston would have certainly opened things up in terms of an additional North-South Cross London route or few, even if the SER rather than the LSWR would have benefited most from the tunnel.

 

[John Webb]

Referring back to Alan Jackson's "London Termini" there was never any intention for a connection from Waterloo towards Charing Cross. There were loco facilities both on the south side of the SER line about halfway between Charing Cross and Waterloo East and on the west side of Waterloo. The broadening of the SER viaduct to accommodate the loco facilities does give the impression there could have been a link that way, but there never was.

 

[R848]

Understand there was never any intention for such a connection from Waterloo towards Charing Cross, just noting there was once a window of opportunity had there been any desire towards it.